soli

1)以暴力去爭取任何事都可以稱為激進﹐呢個有需要討論嗎?
2)而家政府就係多左班搞事棍﹐所以問題多多。
3)香港如果係要奉行自由主義/資本主義既﹐就唔應該/唔洗搞o甘多福利野﹐

mcjohnjohn

1)以暴力去爭取任何事都可以稱為激進﹐呢個有需要討論嗎?
2)而家政府就係多左班搞事棍﹐所以問題多多。
3)香港如果係要奉行自由主義/資本主義既﹐就唔應該/唔洗搞o甘多福利野﹐ ...
soli 發表於 2009-4-4 03:30

1. 可能人地覺得要燒國旗同燒車先算激進. 唔... 話唔定要係火燒立法會先算.
2. 話分兩頭, 有冇呢班搞事棍都會有問題, 不過d 問題唔會咁低層次law, 議事堂內要討論"仆街"係唔係粗口woh, 真搞笑, 更冇面...
3. 最好就有多d 福利又交少d 稅, 但有可能嗎?

fishbelly

I think, there is no point to discuss before 97 or after 97.. the past.  We can argue like this for many many many years without conclusion, until we died.  and hundreds years later, historian will gi ...
rainbow-davie 發表於 2009-4-3 11:12

很慶幸終於有人可以客觀而有建設地討論問題, 先行謝過.

1. 我相信如此抽象的字眼 (激進), 莫說旁人沒辦法說清, 相信社民連亦在試探水溫.  可以看得到三子正逐步加溫, 如果市民都咎病他們的手法的時候, 相信他們才會稍微收斂.  雖然外界不斷評擊, 但我相信他們有持無恐的原因是市民其實還是受落於他們的手法.  相反說, 假如他們不是如此做法, 難道社民連可以把 3 人推上議員之位?  因此是否 "激進" 可以說是取決於市民而非社民連.  

2. 香港問題罄竹難書, 從來覺得一國兩制根本是一個謊言, 一個橋段.  自古以來從未見過 "一國" 可以有兩種制度同行, 因為 "制" 之所在關乎權力, 除非是國與國的關系, 否則一方必定被另一方的權力所限制, 牽引.  簡單的如 "誰委任自治政府的首長", 復雜到 "地方防衛" 等, 都非一個區區香港有權力有能力去提出答案.  更何況香港彈丸之地, 實際利益太受內地牽制.  所謂的 "兩制" 倒不如說是 "在不侵犯我的權力的范圍內" 的制度, 而非自主管治的制度.  好比一個租客, 你可以在你的房間內做你愛做的事情, 不過你永遠不可能私自進行裝潢, 因為如此就會侵犯屋主的主權, 權威.  香港回歸, 就好比一個白領的租客住進鄉巴佬的房子, 鄉巴佬當然覺得沒問題, 還會揶揄白領 "不自量力, 這是我的地方" 等等, 然而白領一定無法降低水平來忍受鄉巴佬種種惡習.  所以要不白領自貶身價, 同流合污, 要不據理力爭去提升鄉巴佬的文明程度 (雖然鄉巴佬依然覺得他們的舉動并非不文明), 當然提升文明程度較同流合污合理的多.

3. 中產跟基層的對抗普世皆有, 亦是一個良性的政治角力.  不說哪里, 就是 BC 省本身, 難道不是 NDP 跟 Liberals Conservatives 等斗得難分難解?  美國難道就沒有貧富懸殊的問題?  重要的是權力天秤一定不能過份偏倚一方, 造成某政黨千秋萬代的相傳而令政制僵化, 國民思想閉塞.  因此所謂民主已經遠遠超過 "少數服從多數" 的范疇, 而是互相制衡, 互相監察的一種 "不完美當中的折衷".  具體上, 香港政府首先要逃離教育的單元化, 換句話說就是 "非商不學, 非利不行" 的思想.  一個國際都市不可能以倚重某一方的才能而能長治久安.  過份倚重某一方面的技能會造成價值觀的失衡跟扭曲, 令市民喪失思想能力.  看看香港的中小學生的價值觀, 就像復制人一樣, 多數均與利字掛鉤.  自古有言 "立功, 立言, 立德", 然而香港所倚重的只有 "立功", 對於 "立言" 和 "立德" 不單嚴重忽視, 更可能被鄙視, 陋視.  香港一天不解決最基本的教育文化, 一天都只會空打轉地做一個富有的鄉巴佬.

(寫了近千字的空言, 并非要好勝地逞辯能, 說實在小弟才疏學淺亦沒什麼辯能, 只是希望大家各抒己見, 提出有意義的觀點.  因此反對此篇回覆的論調者請自重; 人身攻擊, 冷嘲熱諷等只會被視為廉價攻擊的不文明舉動!)

Lik

Would have preferred to reply in Chinese, but I'm pressed for time yet again today, so we'll have to make do with English.

1. 我相信如此抽象的字眼 (激進), 莫說旁人沒辦法說清, 相信社民連亦在試探水溫.  可以看得到三子正逐步加溫, 如果市民都咎病他們的手法的時候, 相信他們才會稍微收斂.  雖然外界不斷評擊, 但我相信他們有持無恐的原因是市民其實還是受落於他們的手法.  相反說, 假如他們不是如此做法, 難道社民連可以把 3 人推上議員之位?  因此是否 "激進" 可以說是取決於市民而非社民連.  
fishbelly 發表於 2009-4-4 03:08

This precisely illustrates the beauty of democracy and the pity of HK. Despite the aggressive methods taken by the LSD, they continue to receive strong popular support from the public. Had they done anything beyond what the public can accept, they would have easily fallen out of the public's favour. And yet despite such an obvious observation, Grandfather and the SAR government continue to impose the utterly unfair functional constituency system in LegCo and delay the introduction of a generally elected HK CEO. The functional constituency seated members have no need to exercise responsibility towards the general public because the general public did not vote them in -- either a very small part of sector of society or Grandfather himself puts him in the power seat, so these crooks only need to suck up to them. The same applies to Dog-Talk Tsang. Of course he has no need to be responsible towards HK citizens.

Another most important revelation through this "swear word / rude words" incident is the SAR government's blatant attempt to demonize the LSD. The CEO, the ministers, many LegCo members, and many of the mainstream media (including the bastarded TVB and MingPao) are all joining forces to condemn and demonize the LSD for "swearing". Yuk Man said "仆街", and 大舊 said "狗官", and neither of them has denied saying those words. And yet the authorities and (more importantly) the media were all insisting that LSD repeatedly swore. Is 狗官 a swear word? Not that I know of. 仆街 is a rude slang. The media even proceeded to censor the entire word that Yuk Man and 大舊 have said in the video, thereby preventing people from even finding out whether LSD was really swearing (saying "fxxk you" etc.) or whether they were just saying what they said. Furthermore, did the media (or the authorities) ever bothered to describe the event that led up to 大舊 calling 林公公 a 狗官? or why Yuk Man blurted out to tell 林公公 to 仆街? Of course they didn't, and had YouTube not exist, the public would never have known the truth.

And the irony doesn't just end there. The LegCo member Wong Yee Wung once flipped the bird (gave middle finger) towards the media and neither the government nor the media never responded in the same all-encompassing manner as they are doing now. The media never even bothered to report 狗噏權 swearing when it was caught on tape! Nor did the media condemn the CEO / LegCo records office fudging the meeting records to say 鬥噏 instead of 狗噏. The modification of records is most serious and shameless because it automatically puts the records department in a similar boat as the Central Government denying student deaths and bloodshed at Tienanmen Square and the Japanese government denying their WWII war crimes and doctoring their history books.

I would have liked to write more, but I gotta go now. Shame...

-Lik

fishbelly

Would have preferred to reply in Chinese, but I'm pressed for time yet again today, so we'll have to make do with English.


This precisely illustrates the beauty of democracy and the pity of HK. Desp ...
Lik 發表於 2009-4-4 09:30

interestingly enough though, is that the more anger it generates among the political parties, the more exposure LSD is going to get, which is ultimately what they want.  The media is actually doing a big favor in demonizing LSD, and all other political parties bite on LSD's bait this time.  That's why there's a chinese saying says "小罵大幫忙".

bbqfish

lik,
are u in canada or hk? if in canada, then i very "pui fook" how u still keep track of hk news so much. i gave up on hk politics la.. no eye see...

Lik

interestingly enough though, is that the more anger it generates among the political parties, the more exposure LSD is going to get, which is ultimately what they want.  The media is actually doing a big favor in demonizing LSD, and all other political parties bite on LSD's bait this time.  That's why there's a chinese saying says "小罵大幫忙".fishbelly 發表於 2009-4-4 17:26

I can see your point and the logic behind what you are saying, Fish Belly. I just don't know if this "swear word incident" is really helping LSD among the general public in HK. I thought the mainstream HK media did a damn good job of drawing the public's attention to their "swearing" and their "swearing" only.

Lots of people watch YouTube, and a lot of people certainly found out about the truth. But as far as the general public is concerned...

Sigh... 不讀報的人比讀報的人知得更多...

-Lik

fishbelly

lik,
are u in canada or hk? if in canada, then i very "pui fook" how u still keep track of hk news so much. i gave up on hk politics la.. no eye see...
bbqfish 發表於 2009-4-4 20:39

其實有時幾心 up, 因為大多數香港人都對時事漠不關心得可怕, 莫講話居加港人, 連居港港人本身都對時事呈現無知.  打開報紙, 所謂 0既 A1 頭版, 竟然又係陳冠希, 我唔係講緊上年, 係一年後拒作供都可以大肆炒作.  再來一個 "吸毒鴛鴦" 事件, 大佬, 唔係話拒地食大麻無錯, 不過講緊係 "A1 頭版", 應該係關乎民生, 政治, 意外等重大事故.  一個小小陳冠希, 關楚耀, 衛詩, 有 mud 0甘重要呢?

身邊朋友, 有幾多會留意時事?  每日 d/l 0既係 TVB 連續劇, youtube 最高點擊 0既係娛樂新聞, 究竟算唔算係一種掩耳盜鈴 0既行為?  就好似呢個 forum 0甘, 來來去去幾丁友, 再減去很多指責性0既無謂 post 後發覺真正討論問題 0既人寥寥可數.

心淡喇, 就算你講 0野幾激昂, 幾有 heart , 一介草民又如之何啊?  好似你見到一個你好鐘意食 0既 蘋果一日一日 0甘 爛, 你不單無辦法令拒變新鮮, 而且當你向身邊 D 人警告時仲會被人眼吡吡, 再唔係直頭都唔知道有個蘋果響度, 有mud 辦法唔心淡.

soli

行為是否“激進”﹐竟然有人會認為要以有多少人支持黎界定﹐如此標準﹐哈馬斯\塔利班等等組織都唔算“激進””囉﹐畢竟佢地有不少當地居民既支持﹐哈馬斯仲贏左上屆巴勒斯坦大選添﹐那相比于粗口黨﹐哈馬斯真係“溫和”得多~
真係好笑好笑之極~

魚肚君話“ 自古以來從未見過 "一國" 可以有兩種制度同行”﹐真係笑死街坊﹐o甘大個美國行緊聯邦制棟響度﹐用緊一國幾十制﹐魚肚君竟然可以視若無睹﹐大放厥辭。更將有5千年歷史既文明古國比喻為鄉巴佬﹐其偏激程度﹐就只有剛剛被某國拒絕入境的某才子可比~
香港奉行自由巿場﹐資本主義﹐其經濟模式並非應由政府主導﹐況且以香港既歷史地理條件和周遭形勢﹐政府也是有心無力﹐所以講都晒氣﹐做o個個更白痴(中藥港﹐數碼港..etc)

peter236

lik,
are u in canada or hk? if in canada, then i very "pui fook" how u still keep track of hk news so much. i gave up on hk politics la.. no eye see...
bbqfish 發表於 2009-4-4 20:39

正當美國英國面對金融制度問題，蝦帕政府欠債大升，經濟下滑，失業勁升，阿力佢仍然對香港政治密切關注，真係另人感動.

不過佢根本唔敢承認香港以經比加國，比其他國家情況好。佢同啲長毛怪，掟蕉怪，都係咁奇怪，滿口胡言又要搵藉口講粗口.