溫哥華老友記討論區 - Powered by Discuz! Board

標題: 過速發展趕工及路基沉降中央緊急重估高鐵隱患 [打印本頁]

作者: lo_pak 時間: 2011-2-28 14:42 標題: 過速發展趕工及路基沉降中央緊急重估高鐵隱患

(星島)2011年3月1日星期二 05:30

(星島日報報道) 原鐵道部長劉志軍落馬後，中國迅猛發展的高速鐵路，不僅被揭出負債逾萬億人民幣，還普遍存在趕工期、原材料質檢倉卒、路基沉降時間不足、甚至懷疑偷工減料等安全隱患，從外國請來的質量專家被氣走，有中國工程師則稱「此生不會搭高鐵」。據悉，中央要求重新評估高鐵安全問題。
　　
本報中國組

在劉志軍全力主導下，至去年底，中國已運營高鐵達四千六百七十多公里，時速三百五十公里的佔約一半，去年日均發送旅客近八十萬。今年六月將投入使用的京滬高鐵，試運行創下時速逾四百八十六公里的世界紀錄。

德質管專家被氣走

「財新網」報道，劉志軍落馬後，國務院多次召集專家討論高鐵安全問題，一系列隱患逐漸被揭發出來。有專家表示：「歐洲等時速三百公里的高鐵要十年修成，中國兩年就完成，搶工問題非常嚴重，帶來設備質量等系列問題。」

「多條線路、多個項目同時上馬，要求物資的供應量很大。」一家供貨商透露，工廠加班加點也不能滿足需求，供貨期大大壓縮，「在質量上力不從心，有時連抽樣檢查的時間都沒有。」

高鐵對路基的要求很高，任何路軌在建成後路基都會產生自然沉降，平均需要五年才能穩定，但中國幾乎一天也沒有等，主要通過大量建高架橋、路軌盡量筆直等方法解決，專家稱可靠性成疑。

為在短期內完成大量新建高鐵，總承包商又層層分包，最後戰線愈來愈長，大量的農民工沒有經過任何培訓，就直接從事技術含量很高的工作。美國《紐約時報》引述接近鐵道部人士表示，中國高鐵使用的化學硬化劑不足，另外建高架橋支柱的粉煤灰因供應大量短缺，可能有偷工減料。
　　
據悉，鐵道部曾聘請一名德國專家做監理工程師，在現場控制施工質量。這名德國專家一再要求現場的管理人員和工人把速度慢下來，但無人理會他，他的意見在現場根本無法實施，最後憤然離去。因存在眾多安全隱患，《人民日報》陝西分社社長杜峻曉在其網誌中透露，鐵道部中鐵某局有位參加修建高鐵的工程師退休時說：「我這輩子出門堅決不坐高鐵。」

作者: sheep 時間: 2011-2-28 15:35

合國情
種菜的不吃菜
養魚的不吃魚
建高鐵的不搭高鐵

作者: 快樂牛郎 時間: 2011-2-28 15:54

oh crap
fxxking Chinese

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-2-28 16:19

Most likely faked news with no evidence.

作者: lo_pak 時間: 2011-3-1 06:11

本帖最後由 lo_pak 於 2011-3-1 06:22 編輯

'Judgment day' fears for high-speed rail tracks

Stephen Chen
Jan 10, 2011

Construction of the mainland's massive high-speed rail network is in danger of becoming a victim of its own success.

The breakneck speed at which track is being laid means engineers are likely to have to sacrifice quality for quantity on the lines' foundations which could ultimately halve their lifespan.

The problem lies in the use of high-quality fly ash, a fine powder chemically identical to volcanic ash, collected from the chimneys of coal-fired power plants. When mixed with cement and gravel, it can give the tracks' concrete base a lifespan of 100 years.

According to a study by the First Survey and Design Institute of China Railways in 2008, coal-fired power plants on the mainland could produce enough high-quality fly ash for the construction of 100 kilometres of high-speed railway tracks a year.

But more than 1,500 kilometres of track have been laid annually for the past five years. This year 4,500 kilometres of track will be laid with the completion of the world's longest high-speed railway line, between Beijing and Shanghai. Fly ash required for that 1,318-kilometre line would be more than that produced by all the coal-fired power plants in the world.

Enter low-quality fly ash.

Professor Wang Lan , lead scientist at the Cement and New Building Materials Research Institute under the China Building Materials Academy, said that given poor quality control on the mainland, the use of low-quality fly ash, and other low-grade construction materials, was "almost inevitable" in high-speed railway construction.

And that could have fatal consequences, Wang said. With a catalytic function almost opposite to that of good fly ash, the bad fly ash could significantly weaken railway line foundations and shorten a railway's lifespan by about half. That would mean China's high-speed rail tracks would last only 50 years.

But Zhu Ming - a researcher at Southwest Jiaotoing University's School of Civil Engineering who experimented with fly ash at a Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway construction site last year - was even more pessimistic.

The use of low-quality fly ash would threaten the safety of rail passengers and "judgment day" might come sooner than expected, Zhu said.

"Quality problems with Chinese high-speed railways will arise in five years," he said. "I'm not talking about small problems, but big problems. Small problems such as occasional cracks and slips that delay trains for hours have already occurred. Big problems that will postpone an entire line for days, if not weeks, will come soon.

"When that happens, the miracle of Chinese high-speed rail will be reduced to dust."

The 2008 study conducted by Yin Yaxiong , senior engineer at the First Survey and Design Institute of China Railways, concluded that though China produced more than 100 million tonnes of fly ash a year, only a small fraction of it would meet the quality requirements for high-speed rail construction.

In high-quality fly ash, the presence of unburnt carbon is extremely low. Coal-fired power plants with large, advanced furnaces are the main producers, but on the mainland, especially in less developed provinces, there are few such power plants.

Most fly ash on the market comes from small or medium-sized plants whose furnaces cannot achieve full combustion, therefore producing low-grade fly ash with higher levels of carbon.

The unburnt carbon in fly ash seizes water molecules. Cement needs lots of water for the chemical reaction that makes it set and harden. Wang said that the bad fly ash competed with cement for water and messed up the reaction.

"Without an adequate ... reaction, high-speed rail is lying not on a concrete foundation, but sand," he said.

Reports about the widespread use of low-quality fly ash in high-speed railway construction began surfacing in mainland newspapers in 2007. Undercover journalists followed fly ash convoys from power plants to railway construction sites in various provinces. Their reports generated a public outcry, prompting the Ministry of Railways to team up with the Communist Party's Propaganda Department in ordering newspapers to kill all reports about low-quality fly ash related to high-speed railways. Some journalists received threats. Some lost their jobs.

Since the 1950s, Chinese civil engineers have tried to use fly ash in building construction, and the dangers of low-quality fly ash are widely known.

In a bid to ensure that only high-quality fly ash is used, the Ministry of Railways has set up testing laboratories at major construction sites. But fly ash suppliers sidestep the testing process, according to a Beijing-based journalist who spent three months investigating them during construction of the Guiyang to Guangzhou high-speed railway line last year. He requested anonymity.

Arriving at a railway construction site on the Guizhou-Guangxi border with a convoy of trucks carrying low-quality fly ash produced by a small coal-fired plant, the journalist said he saw the trucks drive directly to a cement mixing facility and unload straight into it.

"No sampling, no testing and no questions asked," the journalist said.

When that was completed, the convoy leader entered a building nearby with a bag of fly ash that he had in his pocket.

In the temporary building was a small laboratory and in the bag was high-quality fly ash. The man handed the laboratory clerk the bag for sampling - with an envelope containing a bribe - usually 10 to 20 per cent of the fly ash price, the journalist said.

Zhang Shuguan , deputy chief engineer for the Ministry of Railways, told Xinhua last month that the speeds on high-speed railways would reach 500km/h by 2050.

But Zhu said the average speed of trains on Chinese high-speed railways would probably decrease.

The system must endure the daily, if not hourly, grinding and twisting of heavily built passenger trains travelling at 350km/h, Zhu said.

Such operations would significantly speed up ageing of the railways. Some people had already urged that operations be slowed down to save the lines.

"We will need luck to maintain 250km/h for long." he said.

Copyright (c) 2011. South China Morning Post Publishers Ltd. All rights reserved.

作者: sheep 時間: 2011-3-1 07:20

本帖最後由 sheep 於 2011-3-1 07:32 編輯

怪唔得香港係中國嘅未來典範
香港起高鐵
中央有先見之明
都預埋呢庭偷工減料野
香港高鐵永遠唔洗行三百公哩以上
冇呢啲問題
We will need luck to maintain 250km/h for long

作者: lo_pak 時間: 2011-3-1 11:13

回復 6# sheep

HK works way better on Q/C than our great motherland...

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-3-1 12:32

The so-called lack of supply of high-quality fly ash is faked news. China burns large amounts of coal for electricity, and fly-ash is the by-product, and therefore the supply of high-quality fly ash is abundant.
We should highly doubt this piece of unsubstantiated claim from SCMP.

作者: lo_pak 時間: 2011-3-1 15:03

本帖最後由 lo_pak 於 2011-3-1 15:06 編輯

回復 8# peter236

杜峻曉：鐵路工程師為何不願坐高鐵

(作者為人民日報社陜西分社社長)

年前，與中鐵某局一位朋友聊天，我問他，現在的高鐵到底有無隱患？朋友婉轉地說，我們公司有個工程師，去年退休了。他在離開工作崗位時說過這樣一句話：我這輩子出門堅決不坐高鐵。我這朋友所在的單位是專門修鐵路的。修鐵路的不樂意坐高鐵，這裏頭大有文章。

我坐過一次高鐵，是2010年8月份的事。西安至鄭州高鐵開通後，西安鐵路局邀請我體驗一把高鐵出行。高鐵車體漂亮，車廂裏也漂亮，與我早年間坐過的慢車相比，一個天，一個地。高鐵車廂內有一個速度顯示牌，清晰無誤地表明著行車速度。在某一區域，最高時速達到350多公裏。這一速度足以使波音737從地面起飛。

高鐵運行了大約40分鐘，我們被“破例”允許到駕駛室參觀。駕駛室不大，我在司機右邊的位子坐下來，前方鐵路一覽無余地納入視線。在司機身後，是一個副駕駛，他用部隊喊操的聲音向駕駛員報告速度，以及前方的情況。駕駛員則要高聲重復副駕駛的喊話。西安鐵路局宣傳部同志說，這樣做的目的是防止司機犯困，時刻保持清醒頭腦。

某個路段，機車減速後再提速，時速約在250公裏左右。就在此時，一只飛鳥撞在駕駛室玻璃上，只聽“嘭”的一聲悶響，玻璃上出現一片血跡和一團在風中抖動的羽毛。駕駛員啟動雨刷器，把血跡刷凈。這場景讓我想起幼時讀過的《趣味物理學》，書中說，如果一輛汽車以每小時80公裏速度前行，迎面扔去一個西瓜，二者相撞產生的能量相當于引爆一顆手榴彈。

乘高鐵歸來，我腦子裏始終轉著一個念頭，那就是高鐵會不會出事，如果出事會怎樣？必須說明的是，我並非盼望高鐵出事，但不出事不等于不可能出事，必須預防出事。飛機號稱是世界上最安全的交通工具，尚且屢屢有空難發生，何況高鐵乎？

有報道說，京滬高鐵創出了最高時速486.1公裏，再次刷新世界鐵路運營試驗最高速。

乖乖，時速486公裏，據說這是噴氣式飛機低速巡航的速度。如果高鐵可以確保永遠安全，不要說時速486公裏了，即使是846公裏，我也舉雙手讚成，但如果要以血的代價換取高鐵的速度，那還是不要吧。可能有鐵路專家會說我給高鐵潑污水，高鐵已經運行這麼長時間，你聽說哪裏出事了？沒有，確實沒有。我不就是給你提個醒嘛，難道非要等出事再善後？

這幾年，中國高鐵發展很快，不是一般的快，是那種“大幹快上”的快。有些事做得過快，就容易蘿卜快了不洗泥，就不容易出細活，就容易留下隱患。這個隱患不是無關痛癢的隱患，而是人命關天的隱患。朋友說，在發達國家，修一條高鐵運行的路線要花費較長時間，鐵軌鋪好後，要讓其自然沉降，再沉降，還要通過各種檢驗，確保鐵路不會出問題。我們的工程質量真的不敢打保票，有些工程就是典型的“三邊”工程(邊勘測、邊設計、邊施工)，還有些工程連“三邊”工程都夠不上。

鐵路工程師不坐高鐵應該不僅僅是膽子小吧！

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-3-1 15:19

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2011-3-1 15:30 編輯

回復 peter236

杜峻曉：鐵路工程師為何不願坐高鐵

(作者為人民日報社陜西分社社長)

年前，與中鐵某局 ...
lo_pak 發表於 2011-3-1 15:03

I saw this article before. It seems this person worry about the train hitting birds.
But I saw in a Discovery Channel documentary showing the Chinese did tests on highspeed impact. The windshield on the trains are made with reinforced materials. So hitting birds at highspeed will not produce any danger to the driver or the passenger.

It seems this article talks about nothing other than the unfounded fear of hitting birds at highspeed.
All highspeed trains, in any country, will hit birds at highspeed, but it will not produce any danger to the driver or the passenger.

作者: MoiRhapsody 時間: 2011-3-1 16:27

雀撞車窗，少事。
路軌無沉降，先至係重點呀！
咪轉移視線！

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-3-1 16:36

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2011-3-1 16:41 編輯

雀撞車窗，少事。
路軌無沉降，先至係重點呀！
咪轉移視線！
MoiRhapsody 發表於 2011-3-1 16:27

You stupid moron, in China the foundation pillars are pounded onto the bedrock, so that no subsidence will happen.

How many years did they wait before they build the overhead Canada Line in Richmond?

作者: lo_pak 時間: 2011-3-1 16:54

本帖最後由 lo_pak 於 2011-3-1 16:57 編輯

回復 12# peter236

I don't think there are that "many" end bearing piles as you protested except on important crossways or bedrock is close to the ground... Most of them are friction piles, otherwise you have to wait years to build 1 mile...

BTW, just FYI, in the view of consolidation time plays a crucial role to promote good result, sometime "quick" means worst...

作者: MoiRhapsody 時間: 2011-3-1 17:03

第一，雀撞車窗係一個引子，如果只係講雀頭兩段已經講完。唔該睇成篇文佢。
第二，打左地基都照可以沉，成個上海市迷係好例子。
第三，天才既你，知唔知canada line既top speed 同高鐵既top speed差幾遠？

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-3-1 17:24

第一，雀撞車窗係一個引子，如果只係講雀頭兩段已經講完。唔該睇成篇文佢。
第二，打左地基都照可以沉，成 ...
MoiRhapsody 發表於 2011-3-1 17:03

The whole of Japan is sinking due to their earthquake zone. They still built their highspeed railway decades ago with much less modern techniques.

In Richmond, it does not matter how fast Canada Line trains are, if it sinks it will, even if no trains travel on top of it. How many years did they wait in Richmond?

作者: MoiRhapsody 時間: 2011-3-1 18:30

點解canada line 要等？
要等既係高鐵路軌啵？

作者: MoiRhapsody 時間: 2011-3-1 18:45

Canada line 已經係高架橋，何況快極都唔過80km/h，行一陣又要停站，條軌直唔直都乜所謂。
當你飛到300幾,條軌有起伏可以好大獲，揸車既都知，踩100過speed bump睇下會發生乜事？

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-3-1 18:55

點解canada line 要等？
要等既係高鐵路軌啵？
MoiRhapsody 發表於 2011-3-1 18:30

Because Richmond is sinking, they have to wait.

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-3-1 18:58

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2011-3-1 19:00 編輯

Canada line 已經係高架橋，何況快極都唔過80km/h，行一陣又要停站，條軌直唔直都乜所謂。
當你飛到300幾, ...
MoiRhapsody 發表於 2011-3-1 18:45

Chinese highspeed railway also use 高架橋, in order to avoid crossing with highways and other roads and also reduce footprints on farmlands.
Chinese highspeed railway is elevated, except for places near the train stations.

作者: MoiRhapsody 時間: 2011-3-1 19:37

全程高架呀？
你由武漢高架到廣州我睇丫？
Richmond 段canada line就真係全程高架喇~

作者: MoiRhapsody 時間: 2011-3-1 19:53

仲有no3 road 行車行左十幾廿年，仲要等沉？你啲logic真係'goodest'囉~

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-3-1 19:57

仲有no3 road 行車行左十幾廿年，仲要等沉？你啲logic真係'goodest'囉~
MoiRhapsody 發表於 2011-3-1 19:53

Cars are light, but the pillars, elevated tracks and trains are much heavier.

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-3-1 20:02

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2011-3-1 20:06 編輯

The whole Guangzhou Station is elevated. All the tracks and platforms are elevated. The elevated tracks right across the landscape, reducing the footprints on the farmlands.
Most of the network is elevated where it is necessary.

作者: fy789 時間: 2011-3-1 20:26

提示: 作者被禁止或刪除內容自動屏蔽

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2011-3-1 21:20

回復 24# fy789

Sink the Japs

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-3-1 21:37

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2011-3-1 21:38 編輯

歡迎光臨溫哥華老友記討論區 (http://www.loyaukee.com/forum/)