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標題: B.C. Liberals promise to lower H.S.T. rate, offer rebates, hike corporate taxes [打印本頁]
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-25 10:22     標題: B.C. Liberals promise to lower H.S.T. rate, offer rebates, hike corporate taxes

By Rob Shaw, Times Colonist May 25, 2011 11:11 AM

Victoria, B.C. — The B.C. government is promising to cut the 12 per cent harmonized sales tax by two percentage points, provide rebates to millions of British Columbians and hike corporate tax rates in a last-ditch attempt to save the unpopular tax from defeat in a summer referendum.

Finance Minister Kevin Falcon unveiled long-awaited “fixes” to the tax Wednesday, including cutting the provincial portion one per cent on July 1, 2012, and another per cent in 2014.

Families with children under 18, along with low-income seniors, will receive one-time payments from government worth $175 per child. The payments are designed to eliminate $350 in additional sales tax families currently pay under the HST, reducing costs by $470 and leaving an average family paying $120 less than under the old provincial sales tax, said Falcon. The government will spend $200 million to send out the cheques, which it portrayed as a “bridge” payment to the first HST rate cuts.

The promises are contingent on the public voting to keep the tax in a summer mail-in referendum, Falcon said. The finance minister called his proposal to save the tax “bold, responsive, fair and balanced.”

“On average all families will be better off under the improved HST,” he said, while again arguing that reverting back to the PST would be “a terrible step backwards” for the provincial economy.

The government had said each percentage point reduction of the HST would forgo around $850 million in revenue. To cover that loss, the government proposes to increase the general corporate tax rate to 12 per cent from 10 per cent on Jan. 1, 2012 and postpone a planned 2.5 per cent small business tax cut that had been scheduled for April 1, 2012. The tax hikes on businesses would be temporary, but it’s clear the business community was a major beneficiary of the tax and the changes are modest and responsible to help families, said Falcon.

The government will still return to balanced budgets by 2013/14 and not require any additional program cuts, said Falcon. Around $200 million will be removed from the provincial contingency fund this year to help cover costs. Existing HST rebates for low income British Columbians will also remain.

Proposed legislation authorizing the changes will be introduced in the legislature this afternoon and voted upon next week.

The changes come after a series of HST telephone town halls to solicit public feedback on how to change the tax.

“We've been taking a fresh look at the HST,” said Falcon. “We know we need to get this right, and to get this right we know we need to do things differently than we have in the past. And from the start of this process we set out to do things differently.”

Premier Christy Clark had said a main goal of the fixes was to reduce the $350 in additional sales tax an average B.C. family pays under the HST. That figure was contained in a recent independent panel’s report on the impact of the tax.

A mail-in referendum on whether to scrap the HST and revert back to a combination of the PST and GST will run June 13 to July 22.

The government implemented the unpopular in July 2010. It merged the GST and PST into a 12 per cent HST, but removed provincial tax exemptions for a host of items, thereby raising the prices. The government also faced backlash for announcing the tax two months after the 2009 provincial election, in which the Liberal party said it was not considering harmonizing its tax system.

Falcon again apologized for government’s initial introduction of the tax. "The total lack of communicating any facts to the public was deplorable,” he said.

The federal government, which manages the HST on behalf of the province, has signaled it approves of the province’s proposal and will work with B.C. to implement the changes if the HST survives the referendum, said Falcon.
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-25 10:33

本帖最後由 lo_pak 於 2011-5-25 10:36 編輯

My goodness... Post dated cheque on the rate cut starting summer next year??
The doom day is coming, they are going to lose the referendum...
作者: fy789    時間: 2011-5-25 10:39

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作者: Lik    時間: 2011-5-25 10:49

My goodness... Post dated cheque on the rate cut starting summer next year??
The doom day is comi ...
lo_pak 發表於 2011-5-25 10:33

You forgot to mention the lowering of HST to 11% next July, and then to 10% in July 2014 la.

Overall it still sucks, as the majority of BC residents already got shafted both on the monetary and political front. Yes, there is some relief coming (via reduction in HST), but it is too slow, too little, too late. I would have supported keeping the HST had the correction plans been carried out sooner and in a heavier dosage, but now I'd have to sit down and give it some serious thoughts to see if I can support this.

-Lik
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-25 10:57

本帖最後由 lo_pak 於 2011-5-25 11:10 編輯

回復 4# Lik

Totally agree, it's JUST a disaster... I see no hope for them to win the referendum...

How can people on the protest side switch their will based on this announcement...
作者: Lik    時間: 2011-5-25 11:03

回復  Lik

Totally agree, it's JUST a disaster... I see no hope to win the referendum...
lo_pak 發表於 2011-5-25 10:57

C Hing,

What do you mean by "win" sin? Keep the HST? or revert back to PST/GST? or something else?

Personally, I already see this as a lose-lose situation regardless of how the referendum turns out. Citizens have already been ripped off, restuarant businesses have already taken a major hit, and millions have already been wasted by the provincial government. The only good thing we got out of it so far is ousting our Gordie Campbell (and Carol James, to a certain extent).

The only thing to think about between the Yes or No vote is (yet again) -- which apple is less rotten?

-Lik
作者: masterbear    時間: 2011-5-25 11:06

don't know how many restaurants and related business will be closed down next July....
作者: ACC-HE    時間: 2011-5-25 11:07

source: http://www.vancouversun.com/news ... /4838204/story.html
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-25 11:12

本帖最後由 lo_pak 於 2011-5-25 11:13 編輯

回復 7# masterbear

Most of them are taking saline since last year...
作者: AAC    時間: 2011-5-25 11:55

本帖最後由 AAC 於 2011-5-25 11:59 編輯

After reading.... my mind doesn't change at all... go against HST....
Lik is right : too slow, too little, too late... what's the point ?

And.... I don't have young children or seniors living with me.  The plan is just a joke to me.  
作者: CWong    時間: 2011-5-25 12:00

过咗海就神仙，到一切成定局，到時又再加、加、加...，嗰陣我哋都冇声出，所以千祈唔好上当，几時見过有人厭錢多，啲商家情願賺多個錢落袋，又点会益人！你有冇見過自由党班大鱷加咗自己52%人工後会自动減薪？唔夠使咪又係一味加税再搶我哋菏包啲錢！嗰几个%HST税銀对啲有錢佬相对佢哋收入就係等於一个几毫，但係对中下收入人仕就係几佰蚊以上，!@#$%^&*(自由党啲嘢就係乜都益有錢佬!
作者: Lik    時間: 2011-5-25 12:30

After reading.... my mind doesn't change at all... go against HST....
Lik is right : too slow, too little, too late... what's the point ?
AAC 發表於 2011-5-25 11:55

For me at least (although I think voters should think alone similar lines), the questions are:
1) can we (and the province) afford to repay the federal government all that transfer money that we have already spent?

2) is having GST/PST back going to be better for the medium and long term health of the province?

The poison pills that Kevin Falcon and the Liberals threw in to scare/threaten the public are:
a) if GST/PST is back, there will be no reduction in tax rates in the foreseeable future, so it's gonna be a 7%+5% combined rate for the long haul.

b) not all the PST exemptions we previously had will be back

Last but not least, don't be fooled into thinking that the NDP is any better on the HST vs PST/GST issue either. NDP's Adrian Dix purposely avoided a direct answer to the media's question on whether the NDP will lower the PST rate.

-Lik
作者: eddie    時間: 2011-5-25 12:41

Families with children under 18, along with low-income seniors, will receive one-time payments from government worth $175 per child.

If you don't have any child and you are not a senior,. you have nothing.
after you have received a small amount of one-time payment then you pay back for your whole life.
作者: pkphilip    時間: 2011-5-25 22:09

Recently, I have been regretting signing up the petition on the "Stop HST" campaign, becuase going through Vander-Zam's site, there are a lot of conflicting information, and some studies he posted up are actually opposite of what he is saying. I did some research, and found that PST/GST system is actually a compounding taxes. Other countries in the world uses VAT or HST, so why are we actually different?

I think we need to think about this carefully, we hate the HST or because we hate Gordan Cambell? The thing we need to ask is, what is the best for the province, not ourselves. Yes, we might paid more on certain things, but money has to be coming from somewhere to offset our debts. You want your children, grand children to carry more debts?

This guy in UBC actually did a good job in explaning what is the benefit of HST. I think it deserves 15 min our your time to see what is going on and make the decision yourself.

[youtube]nZXu3LXNwEg[/youtube]

Philip
作者: MoiRhapsody    時間: 2011-5-25 22:35

fail.
i don't think the "supplier" deduced anythings!
作者: pkphilip    時間: 2011-5-25 22:50

I also want to add that the Canadian Taxpayer Federation also against the PST. These people are those who have been fighting for us the whole time to have lower/fairer taxes. No one understand taxes as good as they do.

http://taxpayer.com/issues/british-columbia/bc-say-no-pst

Just like the election, I read all the platforms carefully before I make my vote. I vote what is the best for my future.

Philip
作者: Lik    時間: 2011-5-25 23:27

Philip,

Right from the very first day when the HST was proposed, I have acknowledged that the idea in itself was good, but the execution by Colin Hansen and the Liberals at the time was a complete failure. Given the nice fat subsidy that the federal government has proposed, I can overlook the Liberals' election promise to not introduce additional taxes to the province. To me at least, the biggest thing voters and residents are upset about is the lack of public consultation prior to the HST implementation. Details of the HST introduction were not only flawed, it was also a slap on the face on our democratic values.

Directly or indirectly, the backlash against Gordo and Liberals has more or less taught them a painful enough lesson. Economically, I see efficiencies in having the HST, and that is a major reason why I have never been against it ideologically. Execution-wise, I think the HST should be implemented so that it ends up taxing consumers by more or less the same amount as the GST/PST combination would, and that means the HST rate needs to be lower than 12%. Not becoming an economist or account, I don't know what that number should be, but 11% next summer and 10% in summer 2014 still seems too high.

As I was saying previously, regardless of whether we keep or scrap the HST, I think both proposals are poor. Much like yourself, my decision to support the HST or not is not about whether I can reap any benefits out of it. Rather, the question is -- which route would end up hurting the province and the residents less?

Reluctantly, I am leaning towards supporting the HST, but I am certainly still on the fence.

-Lik
作者: fibbi    時間: 2011-5-25 23:33

But if we go against HST, the govt gotta repay the $ to federal? So we still end up paying other new taxes ...

Either way we gotta pay la...
作者: sheep    時間: 2011-5-25 23:34

BTW, 全民公決係唔係有約束力
一定要立法機關去落實？
作者: Lik    時間: 2011-5-25 23:46

以我所知，因為 HST 呢樣野只係關乎省級事務，所以應該係有約束力嘅。（如果係聯邦政策，咁省搞嘅公投就只係有參考性，而並無約束力。）再者，就算真係無約束力嘅話，省選就來來緊，而自由黨亦經已因為HST已搞到一身蟻，唔照住個公投嘅結果去做，你估 Christy Clark 真係唔驚大選會仆直咩？

-力
作者: peter236    時間: 2011-5-26 00:34

That is why Hong Kong is way better. Low income tax and no sales tax at all.
作者: Lik    時間: 2011-5-26 00:52

That is why Hong Kong is way better. Low income tax and no sales tax at all.
peter236 發表於 2011-5-26 00:34

你成日都講到中港兩地咁好，咁點解你仲日日踎響度，而唔快啲欄返去為國為港捐軀？仲留響加拿大食屎做乜鬼呀？

-力
作者: peter236    時間: 2011-5-26 01:14

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2011-5-26 01:36 編輯
你成日都講到中港兩地咁好，咁點解你仲日日踎響度，而唔快啲欄返去為國為港捐軀？仲留響加拿大食屎做乜鬼 ...
Lik 發表於 2011-5-26 00:52


hahaha, you are so full of rage.

You are just jealous of Hong Kong's high growth rate and big budget surplus.
Just ask your Canadian government to cut the deficit and repay the national debt.

While the Hong Kong people are thinking about how to spend the $6000 bonus at the bank, Mr Lik is counting how much HST needs to be paid at the gas station.
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-26 08:01

回復 23# peter236

Hey, do you know you only need to pay the 5% GST for gasoline?
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-26 08:10

本帖最後由 lo_pak 於 2011-5-26 08:11 編輯

I think I will vote to support HST in June.
When I track back my expenses since last July, most of them are not PST exempt. So, it makes no big difference to me at all except on dining out. But still, the impact is small.
作者: Look4chrisng    時間: 2011-5-26 11:12

本帖最後由 Look4chrisng 於 2011-5-26 11:14 編輯

回復 14# pkphilip


1.  AT 5:25, regarding regressive tax, if one were to buy a loaf of bread, the extra 7% would put a heavier burden on a low wage worker than Warren Buffet.  That is the basics of Regressive vs Progressive tax.  He tries to confuse people with "amount of tax" with "burden of the tax"

2.  At 2:24, Pricing has very little to do with costs since our market has so little competition.  Even the cost will be lower to business under HST, but consumers will not share the savings in the real world.  Ever wonder why BC Crabs are cheaper in Toronto than in BC?  We have HST for a while, do you see anything is cheaper than 6 mo ago?

3. He quotes Fraser Institute as a proof/reference to his points.  Fraser Institute is a PR firm.  Its research has 0 creditability.  One should at least learn to tell a fact from an opinion after 4yr of UBC.

Sorry to say, this video badly reflects on UBC.
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-26 11:38

本帖最後由 lo_pak 於 2011-5-26 11:44 編輯

回復 26# Look4chrisng

Yes and No.

1. You haven't taken into account the HST return people received back from the government for low incomes. It sounds very much like you are 輸打贏要...;

2. The price increase in general has a lot of factors involved. HST has a portion to do with it, but not all;

3. If there is point, I can't see why people can't quote from Fraser Institute report;

Anyway, your assumptions do confused me. Try to be fair by linking relevant information.
作者: sheep    時間: 2011-5-26 11:42

If I'm not going to buy a new house, HST has small impact on me
作者: peter236    時間: 2011-5-26 11:57

All sales tax should be removed.
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-26 11:59

回復 29# peter236

They will be gone if we have no debt...
作者: Look4chrisng    時間: 2011-5-26 12:24

本帖最後由 Look4chrisng 於 2011-5-26 12:43 編輯
回復  Look4chrisng

Yes and No.

1. You haven't taken into account the HST return people received b ...
lo_pak 發表於 2011-5-26 11:38


1.  I am trying the point out his way of reading what is progressive and regressive is  wrong.  He is confused with the amount of tax and burden of tax.  

With the refund, it is still unfair to most working people here in BC.  The HST refunds go to "low" income people, but also goes to "no" income people who could be a millionaire.  It is stupid how they administrate the refund, but that is another story.

2.  I am at the end of the stick here.  I pay cold hard cash is real.  But what I get is some unquantifiable benefits in theory.  

What I can measure/see is retail price is a lot higher here in BC than in Toronto.  Please explain to me why BC crabs is alot more expensive in BC.

3. I don't get your point. Please explain.


I am not trying to influence how you see HST.  I am trying to point out how his points are poorly formulated.
作者: blue20ae    時間: 2011-5-26 13:29

They will be gone if we have no debt...
lo_pak 發表於 2011-5-26 11:59


Besides debt payment, taxes are needed for government's operating expenses.
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-26 13:45

本帖最後由 lo_pak 於 2011-5-26 13:48 編輯

回復 31# Look4chrisng

1. Do you know what's the meaning of "sales tax"? It's not like income tax, it's a consumption tax, you pay when you need it... For those low incomes, the biggest expense is on food. But I don't think there's a great impact to them unless they eat a lot of snacks.... There seems to be a lot charged on services like hair-cuts, bankings, etc.

2. Can you tell if HST is removed, the price at BC will be lowered? I don't think so... They have HST in Ontario also, isn't it?

3. If you don't agree with Fraser Institute report, can you please let us know what really hurt your pocket so far after the introduction of HST?
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-26 13:51

回復 32# blue20ae

Peter and I are talking about "sales" tax... The majority of their income come from the corporate tax and our income tax...
作者: peter236    時間: 2011-5-26 13:51

回復  peter236

They will be gone if we have no debt...
lo_pak 發表於 2011-5-26 11:59


We just don't see how and when they will eliminate all the debt.
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-26 13:52

回復 35# peter236

Me too... I don't think I can live that long until that day...
作者: Lik    時間: 2011-5-26 14:22

Debt isn't always bad. If the country does not have any debt at all, economists would probably argue that it is not getting the most out of the country.

Think of it this way -- many (most?) home owners are in debt because of their mortgage. But is that a bad thing if you can afford your monthly payments? Through leveraging, you are getting more out of your salary.

Another example is business lending. If I have $1M capital on hand, am I only going to use that $1M to conduct my business? Or am I going to use that $1M and borrow some more to make it a $5M business that would earn me a much higher return?

The thing you want is manageable debt levels. As long as the amount of debt is not a burden to the economy, you are actually getting more out of what you have.

-Lik
作者: Lik    時間: 2011-5-26 14:25

Another prime example is the stupid HK government and all that reserves that it is sitting on. The money might be used to purchase US T-bills and whatnot, earning a paltry 2% interest. Had some of that money been returned to taxpayer's pockets, people could use it as they see fit, and in doing so, stimulate additional economic activity that yields a higher return than that stupid 2% interest.

-Lik
作者: lo_pak    時間: 2011-5-26 14:32

回復 37# Lik

You are right, debt level has to be managed. IMO, the BC debt is a bit high and quite a bit is wasted within the bureau system.
作者: peter236    時間: 2011-5-26 14:32

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2011-5-26 14:39 編輯
Another prime example is the stupid HK government and all that reserves that it is sitting on. The m ...
Lik 發表於 2011-5-26 14:25


Stinky mouth Lik, just look at US, Canada, Portugal, UK, Spain, Italy Greece, Iceland and Japan. They are all debt-ridden and near bankrupt.
They are falling like dominoes one after another.

The western financial model is crumbling quickly. They just can't repay their unmanageable debt. Past economic growth has been based on excessive borrowing.

Hong Kong is probably one of the most financially sound economy in the world. Their budget surpluses keep on increasing. HK has no net debt and no sales tax whatsoever.
作者: Look4chrisng    時間: 2011-5-26 14:36

本帖最後由 Look4chrisng 於 2011-5-26 14:46 編輯

回復 33# lo_pak


1.  So if it hurts less, it is not regressive?
2.  If HST is removed, the price will be lower. Yes.  My morning coffee on July 1, 2010 will be cheaper for sure.
3.  Prove?  My Strata fees, restaurant meals, lawyer fees, accountant fees, hair cut, bicycle parts........... But it has nothing to do with the discussions.  I said it is a poor judgement to cite Fraser Institute as a source.   It is kind of like asking Bob Marley should everyone smoke pot.
作者: pkphilip    時間: 2011-5-26 20:37

Fraser Institute is a research firm and the government uses its data to make decisions. Are you referring to someone else?

I would say all these documentary are mixed with fictions and facts, I take it as a grain of salt. However, one thing for sure is that the Anti-HST campaign is misleading to begin with. All they are telling people is that they will pay more on their everyday expenses like eating out, services etc...

I have many clients who own businesses and majority of them say that HST makes accounting a lot more straight forward and save them time and money eventually. Although they will not neccessary transfer that savings to their customers, but at least they get to keep more cash in their pockets and will not raise price unless they have to or reinvest into the business. So... the savings are there, just not as "quantifiable" as many said.

I would go against the raise of mininum wage than the HST, it's far more destructive.

Philip



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