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標題: 如果伱女朋友有0左.... [打印本頁]

作者: KY+NY 時間: 2008-12-16 23:03 標題: 如果伱女朋友有0左....

當伱25歲前如果伱女朋友有0左BB 伱會點做??

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-16 23:22

即刻結婚&準備做老豆~

作者: mibu 時間: 2008-12-16 23:37

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 00:22 發表
即刻結婚&準備做老豆~

i second that

作者: 字典仔 時間: 2008-12-16 23:41

third that...

唔好講25歲, 18歲都已經可以攞成人身份證啦...做得出就要負責任...如果唔係, 仲算係男人?

作者: Derek128 時間: 2008-12-16 23:54

fourth that

作者: KY+NY 時間: 2008-12-17 00:01

係唔係0既? 定係講下啊? 霖真D喔..經濟基礎..生活基礎..有咩?!點養BB點擔起頭家啊?!

作者: BoF 時間: 2008-12-17 00:05

depends how old the girl is ....
if she is just 15/16??!! then it is not a good time for her to be a mother .... having a baby will just screw up the rest of her life ....

作者: 字典仔 時間: 2008-12-17 00:11

原帖由 KY+NY 於 2008/12/17 00:01 發表
係唔係0既? 定係講下啊? 霖真D喔..經濟基礎..生活基礎..有咩?!點養BB點擔起頭家啊?!

well..如果你負唔起果個責任, 算唔算係抵死? 冇咁大個頭就唔好戴咁大頂帽...戴套啦

原帖由 BoF 於 2008/12/17 00:05 發表
depends how old the girl is ....
if she is just 15/16??!! then it is not a good time for her to be a mother .... having a baby will just screw up the rest of her life ....

如果真係未夠十八(especially女仔), 梗加玩唔起呢d火, 媽咪冇教你say no咩?

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2008-12-17 00:19 標題: 回復 6# 的帖子

I don't know about HK, but in Canada, the Gov't would take care of the baby.
But what about the parent?

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 00:32

原帖由 KY+NY 於 2008-12-17 16:01 發表
係唔係0既? 定係講下啊? 霖真D喔..經濟基礎..生活基礎..有咩?!點養BB點擔起頭家啊?!

(純粹個人觀點)
25歲既時候, 應該已經好清楚自己條路會點行. 可能呢個時候唔係搵到好多錢, 但應該會知道將來自己條路點走.
經濟基礎呢樣野, 兩公婆一齊共患難, 總會有同享福既一日呢~
小弟25歲既時候都應該可以養得起一個BB的.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 00:35

原帖由 字典仔 於 2008-12-17 16:11 發表

well..如果你負唔起果個責任, 算唔算係抵死? 冇咁大個頭就唔好戴咁大頂帽...戴套啦
如果真係未夠十八(especially女仔), 梗加玩唔起呢d火, 媽咪冇教你say no咩? ...

字典仔果然係一個有責任既男人, 小弟好尊敬你~
其實同女仔上得床, 你就要預左有可能有BB. 就算戴左套, 個套都有機會會漏既, 而任何避孕方法都唔會100%有效的.

作者: KY+NY 時間: 2008-12-17 00:55

雖然係咁講0者現實唔容許喔 0係能力未足夠0既時候生個BB出來咁到時伱專心於工作定係BB好啊邊個教個BB啊

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 08:27

原帖由 KY+NY 於 2008-12-17 00:03 發表
當伱25歲前如果伱女朋友有0左BB 伱會點做??

Aren't you supposed to make sure it's by you first??? LOL just kidding...

Get married and become a father lor...be a man!

作者: chunsh 時間: 2008-12-17 08:30

原帖由 字典仔 於 2008-12-17 01:11 發表

well..如果你負唔起果個責任, 算唔算係抵死? 冇咁大個頭就唔好戴咁大頂帽...戴套啦

如果真係未夠十八(especially女仔), 梗加玩唔起呢d火, 媽咪冇教你say no咩? ...

講﹐就真係人人都識講
但係如果做人下下都o甘理性&呀媽教就一定有用既﹐個的未婚媽媽組織我想都可以
close西佢啦

當兩個人都撻著西既時候﹐o個兩個人(not only man)既大腦logic係已經function唔
到

作者: yuusaku 時間: 2008-12-17 09:24

原帖由 KY+NY 於 2008-12-17 01:01 發表
係唔係0既? 定係講下啊? 霖真D喔..經濟基礎..生活基礎..有咩?!點養BB點擔起頭家啊?!

經濟基礎只不過係一個常用既藉口,主要睇拒地兩位有冇心去承擔和建立個家庭

作者: siumaibb 時間: 2008-12-17 09:34

梗係要負責任啦，除非你唔愛你女友啦

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 10:34

原帖由 chunsh 於 2008-12-17 09:30 發表
當兩個人都撻著西既時候﹐o個兩個人(not only man)既大腦logic係已經function唔
到 ...

this is just an excuse...if you're under age...dont' even be 撻著 lor...know your bottomline

作者: ACC-HE 時間: 2008-12-17 11:16

get married
but the marriage life just won't be as healthy.

作者: chunsh 時間: 2008-12-17 11:22

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 11:34 發表

this is just an excuse...if you're under age...dont' even be 撻著 lor...know your bottomline

tell me why there were/are so many people got executed (e.g. drowned in pig cage or being thrown stones upon them) by their own society because of having "illegal sex" in their society while they already know the rules are there

作者: rockypath 時間: 2008-12-17 11:28

just don't get yourself into this kind of situation. at least take some protective actions. it does not require much effort to prevent things like this happen.

作者: chunsh 時間: 2008-12-17 11:51

原帖由 rockypath 於 2008-12-17 12:28 發表
just don't get yourself into this kind of situation. at least take some protective actions. it does not require much effort to prevent things like this happen.

I agree

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 11:55

Yes, it's always super easy to say than work it out, men!
How about you're rich enough or your dad is rich enough and is willing to support you and your wife and your baby for the rest of your lives, would you have a healthy family in the future? Money is just one of the (and the main) reasons/excuses, but other than that, a parent has much more responsibility besides money, or should say, money is really not the main essential element to bring up a good kid. If you and your gf are not well prepared (physically, spiritually, and economically), getting married doesn't mean "you love her"; but on the other hand, you are just "being responsible" to your gf (doesn't necessary means "love"), but not your future baby. Imagine what will influence your baby's grows up, what kind of value and personality he/she will develop, what kind of future he/she will be getting.... ? Having babies is much more complicated and liable than just having sex, or even "simply get married lor". Not getting married in this inappropriate moment doesn't mean you can't/won't marry her later in the near future ga wor. If you really love your gf (future wife) and your future baby(ies), you should think twice what you should do.

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 12:00

原帖由 chunsh 於 2008-12-17 12:22 發表

tell me why there were/are so many people got executed (e.g. drowned in pig cage or being thrown stones upon them) by their own society because of having "illegal sex" in their society while they alr ...

simply because some people just follow their desires

definitely less % people doing this in the old days than it is now...

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 12:13

原帖由 Ultraman 於 2008-12-17 12:55 發表
Yes, it's always super easy to say than work it out, men!
How about you're rich enough or your dad is rich enough and is willing to support you and your wife and your baby for the rest of your lives, ...

You had unprotected sex with your gf and she's pregnant. Now you're saying you don't love her and just being "responsible"? That's garbage! People think with their butts or what? They don't know the consequence before they did it?

There are many parents who are just 14-18 years old in this world, so they are unqualified for being good parents? I believe the most important thing a baby needs is love and a safe growing environment. Are these that hard to achieve and requires a lot of money? I don't think so. The timing might not be the most ideal, but you're not going to have an abortion because of this right? The path might not be smooth but don't be a coward, just face the problem!

作者: chunsh 時間: 2008-12-17 12:27

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 13:00 發表

simply because some people just follow their desires

definitely less % people doing this in the old days than it is now...

face the truth
while technologies changes and keep changing, human...or I should say, animal, nature doesn't

作者: Hyde 時間: 2008-12-17 12:44

原帖由 Ultraman 於 2008-12-17 12:55 發表
Yes, it's always super easy to say than work it out, men!
How about you're rich enough or your dad is rich enough and is willing to support you and your wife and your baby for the rest of your lives, ...

LOLOL
Money is THE only reason to worry. They panic becuz they can't even afford themselves, how do you think they can afford to have a baby? When you have money, do you really need to worry about bringing food on the table for the wife and baby? There are better things to worry about then struggling to pay the bills.
like finding better schools for the kids etc etc.

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 12:44

face the truth
while technologies changes and keep changing, human...or I should say, animal, nature doesn't

well, those who can't control their desires, you can call them....animal...LOL

but there are still tons of humans in this world lor...

[ 本帖最後由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 13:52 編輯 ]

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 12:51

原帖由 Hyde 於 2008-12-17 13:44 發表

LOLOL
Money is THE only reason to worry. They panic becuz they can't even afford themselves, how do you think they can afford to have a baby? When you have money, do you really need to worry about ...

there are way more things than just money when bringing up a kid...don't be naive

作者: chunsh 時間: 2008-12-17 13:01

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 13:44 發表
well, those who can't control their desires, you can call them....animal...LOL

but there are still tons of humans in this world lor...

human never be able to control desire, we just good at suppressing and hiding them. If we can put all of our desire under CONTROL, why do we need government and police?

don't get me wrong though, I never say men have no responsibilities in such issues. Instead, we have. I just want to point out that it is very easy to say some heroic comments (I call it invincible speech

) here which most girls like to hear from their bf, but it would another story when this situation happen on them.

just like we always found some members in forums talk about their story that their bf/gf has another affair with another guy/woman and ask if he/she should leave his bf/gf. We can see that many other member who give replies would suggest that the poster should break up and found a new gf/bf. WELL, yeah, because its not their stories

作者: Catpiano 時間: 2008-12-17 13:12

I hvn't read all the replies .. but when u said 伱女朋友有0左BB .. does it mean she has SOMEONE else's baby? and that bother you, and you dont know what to do??

Or you mean .. you MADE the baby .. ??

作者: daimo 時間: 2008-12-17 13:30

原帖由 KY+NY 於 2008-12-17 01:01 發表
係唔係0既? 定係講下啊? 霖真D喔..經濟基礎..生活基礎..有咩?!點養BB點擔起頭家啊?!

that's basically:

"kill the first born, wait until you feel relatively comfortable, then you'll keep the 2nd born".

assuming that you are not going to ditch the girl and ultimately you want to have a child, that is.

作者: daimo 時間: 2008-12-17 13:31

just want to remind you that children are not commodities.

作者: fibbi 時間: 2008-12-17 14:03

There are quite a lot of people got married before 25 years old too. They can't have kids??
say 22, or 23 years old, already graduated from college/university and probably start working already. What's the problem of having kid?? No matter young people or new immigrants or others, it's not TOO easy to look for jobs. But I don't see why people can't have kids and even think about getting rid of the baby...

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 14:25

原帖由 chunsh 於 2008-12-17 14:01 發表

human never be able to control desire, we just good at suppressing and hiding them. If we can put all of our desire under CONTROL, why do we need government and police?

don't get me wrong though, I ...

What kind of desires are you talking about? I'm just talking about sexual desires. People have tons of different kinds of desires, and of course one way or another, we have failed. On issues as critical as bringing a new life to earth, I think people in general should be more rational, i.e. think before they do it, which means controlling yourself. Is it that hard to do contraception?

作者: Hyde 時間: 2008-12-17 14:29

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 13:51 發表

there are way more things than just money when bringing up a kid...don't be naive

welcome to reality, without it... good luck
LOL

in case you forgot, everything cost money, shelter, food, education, health.

作者: Hyde 時間: 2008-12-17 14:32

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 13:13 發表
I believe the most important thing a baby needs is love and a safe growing environment. Are these that hard to achieve and requires a lot of money? I don't think so.

where are your baby going to find love when the young parents are working 2 jobs a day trying to bring money in the family to feed the baby?
how can you even have a safe growing environment when you can't afford houses? living on the streets or ghetto areas is sure safe.

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 14:33

原帖由 Hyde 於 2008-12-17 15:29 發表

welcome to reality, without it... good luck
LOL

what the heck are you talking about? without what? good luck to what?

money is just one thing in the equation, there are tons of other things in the same equation...do your math properly...don't just focus on $$$

作者: Hyde 時間: 2008-12-17 14:36

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 15:33 發表

what the heck are you talking about? without what? good luck to what?

money is just one thing in the equation, there are tons of other things in the same equation...do your math properly...don't ...

WTF do you think we are talking about? you can't even understand a simple conversation. I quoted you for a reason. Learn to read, and digest what you are reading.

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 14:44

原帖由 Hyde 於 2008-12-17 15:32 發表

where are your baby going to find love when the young parents are working 2 jobs a day trying to bring money in the family to feed the baby?
how can you even have a safe growing environment when y ...

many parents are working full time, still lots of them share lots of love with their kids, have you seen the family on yahoo blog?

Did the original poster said he's living off the street right now? Don't be silly and tell me all these...for the most part, even if you have low income, you will have a shelter to live in Canada.

作者: Catpiano 時間: 2008-12-17 14:48

Money can't buy love ..  but in certain degree .. money can "improve" love .. ( sort of )

Especially in Canada ..  Money is not everything ..  I dont see why a poor family cannot give love to kids . .. ( again, in Canada, won't be super poor .. )

Lots of cases ..  either the husband or wife lost the job ... ( say even accident etc ) so .. single income, and need to feed whole family ...

Again .. not mean poor = happy ..

I grow up in a poor family ..  single parents .. just my mom .. and my dad didn't pay us any $$ to support at all .. and my mom's income wasn't enough ..

But I was very happy ..  everyday, I cooked rice ( just rice ) and wait for my mom, or sometimes, went to the TRAM station to wait for her ...  then we went to buy "fish and chip" to share ..  I still remember every single screen now .. between my mom and my memory ...  and I still share with my mom about that all the time ..

So .. with more money ..  ok ..  get yourself PP .. Birkin .. Lambo .. whatever .. with less money? get yourself  LV .. Omega .. Acura ..  etc ..

No money .. ( Poor ) at all ? wear a Casio .. gap bag ..  drive civic ..  nothing's wrong with it!!!

As SB said ..  money is one of the "FACTOR" may be it is a big factor to some people .. may be it is just a small factor to some ...  all depends on one's "VALUE SYSTEM" ...

作者: chunsh 時間: 2008-12-17 14:49

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 15:25 發表

What kind of desires are you talking about? I'm just talking about sexual desires. People have tons of different kinds of desires, and of course one way or another, we have failed. On issues as cr ...

what you said can be achieved in an ideal world
too bad, our world is not ideal that everyone is rational in ALL cases before we had sex. On the contrary, the moment right before having sex is one of the moments for people who be irrational.

again, I didnt say I agree that we have no responsibilities for that

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 14:58

原帖由 Hyde 於 2008-12-17 15:36 發表

WTF do you think we are talking about? you can't even understand a simple conversation. I quoted you for a reason. Learn to read, and digest what you are reading.

read what? you only have a couple of words for me to read, and they don't make any sense, come back when you can write proper sentences

作者: chunsh 時間: 2008-12-17 14:59

原帖由 fibbi 於 2008-12-17 15:03 發表
There are quite a lot of people got married before 25 years old too. They can't have kids??
say 22, or 23 years old, already graduated from college/university and probably start working already. What' ...

did u ever hear news reports/stories about young parents(normally < 23) leaving their babies at home and then going to club/dance/drink/one night stand/etc.... and then their babies/children got injured by themselves at home??

people under 25 at this generation dont know even take care of themselves like the generations 20 years ago with the same age

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 15:06

原帖由 chunsh 於 2008-12-17 15:49 發表

what you said can be achieved in an ideal world
too bad, our world is not ideal that everyone is rational in ALL cases before we had sex. On the contrary, the moment right before having sex is one o ...

Not really only in ideal world. Many good decision makers can do this. Of course young kids will probably not be able to control as good as adults about sex, and that's why there is an age limit. It's a training of mind which probably come with good discipline.

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 15:14

原帖由 chunsh 於 2008-12-17 15:59 發表

did u ever hear news reports/stories about young parents(normally < 23) leaving their babies at home and then going to club/dance/drink/one night stand/etc.... and then their babies/children got inj ...

of course I did

do you see the connection?
naive/imature kids had the forbidden fruit -> baby -> did not take the responsiblilty of being parents -> baby suffers

so who's fault is this? is that any better than this?
naive/imature kids had the forbidden fruit -> baby -> abortion -> live in shadow for life

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 15:48

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 12:13 發表

You had unprotected sex with your gf and she's pregnant. Now you're saying you don't love her and just being "responsible"? That's garbage! People think with their butts or what? They don't know ...

Please don't misunderstand me.

I didn't say the guy didn't love the girl but only being responsible. I meant, that is not the best way to love or to express his love. Getting married is very easy to do, but the rest of the life could be very tough. Not only the young parents' lives are tough, but also their kid. Being a responsible parent, yes you can have your own guts to face any difficulty (at least you can think that way); but you have no right to choose a tough life for your kid(s) (if you say you love your kids). Which parents don't want to provide all the best things for their kids? If you can foresee your kid will be having a very tough and unhealthy life but still want to give birth, can I call you silly-brave and irresponsible? Even more, if a child grown up from an unhealthy family, what would he/she influence to the community? Being a responsible parent, not only you should consider yourself, but also your offspring, plus the society. See how many "bad guys", adult criminals as well as young criminals out there? Can/would you say their parents have no responsibility at all? Can/would you say their parents are very responsible people?

Good and responsible parents not formula-ly raise good and responsible children. However, immature and irresponsible parents surely reduce the chance of raising good and responsible children.

作者: Hyde 時間: 2008-12-17 16:14

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 15:58 發表

read what? you only have a couple of words for me to read, and they don't make any sense, come back when you can write proper sentences

i got straight to the point and you can't understand it.... if u wern't retarded, maybe you'd get it.

作者: Hyde 時間: 2008-12-17 16:20

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 15:44 發表

many parents are working full time, still lots of them share lots of love with their kids, have you seen the family on yahoo blog?

Did the original poster said he's living off the street right now? ...

the OP didn't even say she is pregnant, what's your point?  but what I know is that she's worry that she doesn't even have enough financially to support the family.

you are right when there are more things to worry about then money, but before you worry about other things, you better worry about money first. so before they have money, they should start worrying that kind of extra activities their kids should learn, or what private school they should go to?

have you see those poor ppl thats on welfare and live in public housing post family photo in yahoo blog?  the only time i see their family photo is when the parents kill the kids and themselves becuz they are too fcuking poor on the headline news.

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 16:35

if you said so...go right down to a point that only you can understand on this planet...LOL

I knew people living in public housing and they're very happy wor...what's posting pics on blogs have to do with happiness?

aham...I thought you said the ONLY important thing is money, when did you change your mind? I hate quoting people but this is for you only "Money is THE only reason to worry" (post #26). I think there's a difference between "first" and "only".

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 16:52

OK Ultraman, I see what you're trying to say now.

For one thing, are the parents in such a bad situation/condition right now?  I think for most people, they're probably not in that position.  You've said "tough" many times.  So what are the problems that this couple is facing that will be so tough and cause a unhealthy baby?  Is not able to go to party/bar too tough?  LOL  Maybe it's time for them to grow up?

Silly brave or irresponsible?  I'm sure there are people who are silly brave.  I'm not saying you shouldn't analyze the problem and come up with a plan.  I'm saying one shouldn't hide from difficulties.  It could be difficult but it's not impossible right?  Even for a low income person, it's not impossilbe to have a kid.  This is Canada, it's way better than a lot of other places already.  Giving the best to the kids?  What's the best and what the worse?  If you insist on having private school, then of course not a lot of people can afford that.  However, public school is absolutely free.  Instead of wearing Nike, you can wear Walmart shoes, etc...many people are doing that...

So how would you deal with this baby then?  I want to know your opinion.

作者: chunsh 時間: 2008-12-17 17:11

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 17:35 發表
if you said so...go right down to a point that only you can understand on this planet...LOL

I knew people living in public housing and they're very happy wor...what's posting pics on blogs have to do ...

what else is more important than having a stable financial background for the couple to raise a child? without money, parents need to work like a slave (not just a dog!) to gain money. So u think they still have time to be with the child, play with them, go to picnic with them, get a DS for them?

so u think the child will be happy while his/her parents always "disappear" because they need to go to work? Now comes the problem of "problematic teens"

well, if the couple's parents are rich, thats another story

[ 本帖最後由 chunsh 於 2008-12-17 18:13 編輯 ]

作者: siuyudim 時間: 2008-12-17 17:22

what if the girl doesn't want to get married? what would you do?

作者: Hyde 時間: 2008-12-17 17:25

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 17:35 發表
if you said so...go right down to a point that only you can understand on this planet...LOL

I knew people living in public housing and they're very happy wor...what's posting pics on blogs have to do with happiness?

aham...I thought you said the ONLY important thing is money, when did you change your mind? I hate quoting people but this is for you only "Money is THE only reason to worry" (post #26). I think there's a difference between "first" and "only".

you were the one pointing out and connecting happiness with people with families posting their family pictures on blogs and  yahoo albums.

First and Only is the same thing for the poor ppl.  if they can only worry about the first thing, do you think they should even worry about the second thing?

Like I said, you do not even understand I say or anything the real world works.  Let me rephrase it so a retarded guy like you can understand. Do you think a poor family with only enough money for their daily expense will be worrying where they should take their kids to go learn swimming, taekwondo, piano, drawing?? FYI, all of those cost money, do you think when the parents don't have enough money do all that?  and what's gonna happen?  the kid just hangs out on the street everyday with the wrong crowd while their parents are at work struggling to bring food on the table.

Money can't solve all problem, but without money, you can't solve any problem.

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 17:36

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 15:14 發表

do you see the connection?
naive/imature kids had the forbidden fruit -> baby -> did not take the responsiblilty of being parents -> baby suffers
so who's fault is this? is that any better than this?
naive/imature kids had the forbidden fruit -> baby -> abortion -> live in shadow for life

Honestly, there is only sad result for either situation.
Case 1: naive/immature kids had the forbidden fruit > baby > decide to give birth > baby/grown up kid suffers in the future.
Case 2: naive/immature kids had the forbidden fruit > baby > abortion > no "formed & conscious" baby to suffer, but parents might live in shadow for the rest of their lives.

Actually, the naive/immature kids shouldn't have had the forbidden fruit at the first place. What I interpret "naive/immature kids" is, very young couples who are not physically and mentally well built, and also not economically independent. No matter they have use any kind of safe preparation when they're eating the forbidden fruit, there is still a chance to be pregnant. If they're not "well prepared" for every possible consequence, they shouldn't even eat the fruit. That's call "responsible". Once they didn't consider the consequence well but have the fruit eaten and have baby, getting married at their very young and non-prepared age (I call this "inappropriate" time), they're just being irresponsible but not responsible. Yeah, you might think getting married is the correct way to tell people you have guts to face and bear the consequence, and also being a responsible person/parent. However, very likely they can't support their lives all by themselves (not only limited to economically), and thus they'll have to ask their parents (and other relatives and friends) for help. As I said, money is not the biggest concern, for money can be borrowed but wisdom and maturity cannot. When more "innocent" people have to get involved and suffered, I won't call this a responsible action at all.

作者: 小叻 時間: 2008-12-17 17:46

土瓜灣發現初生嬰兒屍體 (明報)12月18日星期四 08:05

土瓜灣旭日街海心公園對開，凌晨近1時半有人發現一具初生嬰兒屍體。
該名嬰兒用布包著，救護員到場證實嬰兒已死亡，稍後會驗屍確定死因。警方將案列作屍體發現案處理。

That's a very sad result.........the baby is innocent....

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 17:58

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 16:52 發表
OK Ultraman, I see what you're trying to say now.

For one thing, are the parents in such a bad situation/condition right now?  I think for most people, they're probably not in that position.  You've said "tough" many times.  So what are the problems that this couple is facing that will be so tough and cause a unhealthy baby?  Is not able to go to party/bar too tough?  LOL  Maybe it's time for them to grow up?

Silly brave or irresponsible?  I'm sure there are people who are silly brave.  I'm not saying you shouldn't analyze the problem and come up with a plan.  I'm saying one shouldn't hide from difficulties.  It could be difficult but it's not impossible right?  Even for a low income person, it's not impossilbe to have a kid.  This is Canada, it's way better than a lot of other places already.  Giving the best to the kids?  What's the best and what the worse?  If you insist on having private school, then of course not a lot of people can afford that.  However, public school is absolutely free.  Instead of wearing Nike, you can wear Walmart shoes, etc...many people are doing that...

So how would you deal with this baby then?  I want to know your opinion.

OK, let's talk about: what essential elements/factors do you think a pair of good and responsible parents should have? Or what essential elements/factors a pair of parents should have in order to have a bigger chance to raise up good and responsible kids?
Let's brainstorm..... money (doesn't necessary to be super rich)? maturity? personality? value? social network/relationship? knowledge (in any field)? .... etc?
All you have listed out might be something most people concern (including yourself), money or something material related. But that's not "should give all the best to kids" I meant. What I meant "tough", also not or not only related to money or material issues. If you somehow agree my brainstorm elements/factors are true and valid (besides money), then I can tell you I really doubt a very young or young couple is mature enough, and have personality well built in a positive way, and have correct or good value of life, and have strong social network/relationship, and are well knowledgeable enough to raise up their kids, "future plan" to them is even more "untouchable".

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 17:59

chunsh & hyde,

You guys always like to bring out extreme cases huh? If cases are that extreme, then I guess it should be assessed in a case per case basis. I'm talking about people in general. Plus, this is Canada, a lot more benefits for the poor. Nowadays, the majority of the parents are working parents and they're still raising happy kids. Most people don't need to work 24/7 to sustain their living, do they? If not, then there you go you have time!

Go do some research, street kids/trouble teens don't become that way because their parents are low income.

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 18:06

If they're not "well prepared" for every possible consequence, they shouldn't even eat the fruit. That's call "responsible". Once they didn't consider the consequence well but have the fruit eaten and have baby, getting married at their very young and non-prepared age (I call this "inappropriate" time), they're just being irresponsible but not responsible.

I agree. But there are some members who think this cannot be avoided/controlled.

Yeah, you might think getting married is the correct way to tell people you have guts to face and bear the consequence, and also being a responsible person/parent.

Let me tell you, I don't believe in showing/telling people what I think, I do it. If your motive is just to show that you're responsible, it's totally wrong. When I mean face the problem, I mean it! That means change in life style, change whatever to make it work, with determination!

I'm in a hurry, will be back....haha

作者: Catpiano 時間: 2008-12-17 18:11

Aiya . SB .. I know you are very "FREE" now ..

But .. um ..

作者: Hyde 時間: 2008-12-17 18:13

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 18:59 發表
chunsh & hyde,

You guys always like to bring out extreme cases huh? If cases are that extreme, then I guess it should be assessed in a case per case basis. I'm talking about people in general. Plu ...

people in general are those that have kids already have a stable income.

we are talking about having a baby early. BEFORE someone is financially stable, no people in general. you are just moving the topic somewhere else.

作者: Hyde 時間: 2008-12-17 18:25

My bro had his 1st son when he was 20, but then he's not an good example since we have money. Financially was never a problem to begin with and he and his wife had no trouble taking care of the kids, actually, they don't even need to take care of the kids, we have maids to do that... all they do is play with the kids and spend time with them. no, only his wife spend times with the kids, my bro hardly even see them. same with my sis, her husband hardly see their kid.

Hell, my bro and sister don't even treat their kids as children, they treat them like adults, they don't give them advantage of being a child. they inch them a lot, they let them do whatever they want and buy whatever they want make them learn from their own mistake. they are not regular parents, but their kids are sure a lot smarter then other kids their age.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 18:37

點都好啦, 總之我就一定唔會叫女朋友落左佢啦.
唔落左佢, 就唯有生左佢出黎啦. 既然要生佢出黎, 點都要比番個名份女朋友卦. (除非女朋友要仔唔要公啦)

窮, 都可以養到小朋友的. 細個既時候我屋企都好窮, 而家都可以好地地咁啦. 最緊要係父母識唔識教, 同個小朋友品質優唔優良之麻.

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 18:39

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 18:06 發表

I agree. But there are some members who think this cannot be avoided/controlled.

Let me tell you, I don't believe in showing/telling people what I think, I do it. If your motive is just to show t ...

Yep, the first and second consequences (eating the forbidden fruit, and become pregnant) might not able to be avoided, but the following consequences can! That's why I believe getting married in an inappropriate time is no no.

*****

Well, I didn't really mean "to show people". But OK, even not to "show off" to other people, not to "show" to your gal, no need to "prove" to anybody, but it's just your action following your own heart, I still think it might not be the best decision to get married in an inappropriate time.

Take a look on my previous brainstorm example again, how if the parents don't have all the essential elements/factors I stated but only money, or even lots of money, what likely their kid(s) would be brought up?

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 18:49

Yep, the first and second consequences (eating the forbidden fruit, and become pregnant) might not able to be avoided, but the following consequences can! That's why I believe getting married in an inappropriate time is no no.

why can't the first and second consequences be avoided?

Take a look on my previous brainstorm example again, how if the parents don't have all the essential elements/factors I stated but only money, or even lots of money, what likely their kid(s) would be brought up?

my brother and I grew up nicely.

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 18:54

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 18:37 發表
最緊要係父母識唔識教, 同個小朋友品質優唔優良之麻.

Exactly! This is the key point I've been saying. Which parents don't want their kid to be a good and useful person, well educated and having a good job, able to gain some money...etc etc? Or at least don't want to see their kid would be a criminal or do anything harming the society.
I'm not saying "lower quality" family can only raise up lower quality children. But I'm saying which one will has a bigger probability, a "lower quality" family or a "higher quality" family? ("quality" doesn't only limited to money but all other essential elements/factors) If a lower quality family still wants to have kids, that means they'll have a bigger risk to have high quality kids. In other words, the parents are less responsible.
(Note: not mean to offend anyone.)

作者: kabuki 時間: 2008-12-17 18:54

Let’s do a case study.

Sex is a basic human need. They are both 20 yrs old + and finished school, make under 15k (HKD) each, DID use contraception, the guy and his family is ok if not supportive of having the kid.... but the girl hate kids and is not mature enough for rising a baby. Even though the girl’s family won’t force her to have an abortion, her family would not be supportive at all. What would u guys do?

作者: ACooperFan 時間: 2008-12-17 18:57

原帖由 siuyudim 於 2008-12-17 18:22 發表
what if the girl doesn't want to get married? what would you do?

what does the girl think seriously?? she's the one carrying the baby...shouldn't the decisions be made together?

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 19:05

原帖由 kabuki 於 2008-12-18 10:54 發表
Let’s do a case study.

Sex is a basic human need. They are both 20 yrs old + and finished school, make under 15k (HKD) each, DID use contraception, the guy and his family is ok if not supportive of having the kid.... but the girl hate kids and is not mature enough for rising a baby. Even though the girl’s family won’t force her to have an abortion, her family would not be supportive at all. What would u guys do?

They should not have sex in the first time. Sex is a basic human needs, but you need to achieve something in order to have this gift from nature. YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT YOU WILL HAVE CHANCE TO GET A BB EVEN IF YOU DO ALL THE CONTRACEPTION METHODS. You should know whether you can take the risk before doing something.

If you have sex, you should take that risk and that's all.

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 19:07

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 18:49 發表

why can't the first and second consequences be avoided?

Since parents can't spy their kids 24-7, no matter how straight they teach their kids, how much care and love they provide, kids also learn from their peer group and from other resources. And since they're young, they have higher curiosity in sex and thus very easy and normal to taste the forbidden fruit. (doesn't mean "all" kids will do)

my brother and I grew up nicely.

Haha.. do you mean you're brought up from a family that lacks of money, good personality, correct and positive value of life, knowledge, ....etc, but you and your brother still grew up nicely? Even so, how can you be sure if your family got everything, you and your brother could be a lot better than now?
(You may say you and your brother think you two are good enough and are pretty satisfied with the current stage. However, this is only from your pov, the society might be longing for a better person.)

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 19:19

原帖由 kabuki 於 2008-12-17 18:54 發表
but the girl hate kids and is not mature enough for rising a baby...

That's the key killing part! Even the young couple (and even their families) are rich, have all the "essential elements/factors" mentioned, "the gal hates kids"....!
The fact is, even the parents are with lots of love (despite all the money and other factors) to their kids, doesn't necessary mean they know how to teach and raise their beloved kids. Now the mother-to-be "hates" kids, very likely she pays less attention and less patience and less love to her kids. Would the kid(s) be heavily and happily raised up?
Don't think she'll change and get better once the baby is born. See how many women think their men will change after certain time or even got married?! Not just men, sometimes people won't change.

作者: kabuki 時間: 2008-12-17 19:25

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 20:05 發表

They should not have sex in the first time. Sex is a basic human needs, but you need to achieve something in order to have this gift from nature. YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT YOU WILL HAVE CHANCE TO GET A ...

well first of all that was not the question...
second of all there is always an option of abortion...
and finally, are you saying that if a woman hate kids, she should not have sex at all even if they are married?

作者: kabuki 時間: 2008-12-17 19:27

原帖由 Ultraman 於 2008-12-17 20:19 發表

That's the key killing part! Even the young couple (and even their families) are rich, have all the "essential elements/factors" mentioned, "the gal hates kids"....!
The fact is, even the parents ar ...

Haha we all know how it is impossible for a person to change… don’t know why some woman keeps trying

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 19:31

原帖由 kabuki 於 2008-12-18 11:25 發表
well first of all that was not the question...
second of all there is always an option of abortion...
and finally, are you saying that if a woman hate kids, she should not have sex at all even if they are married?

if a woman hate kids, she should use some better contraception methods, e.g. 結紮.
if her man doesn't want kids too, he should also go to 結紮.

the risk of having a BB should be very low with the above conditions.

作者: Hyde 時間: 2008-12-17 19:33

i think my girl is on pills....

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 19:36

they have higher curiosity in sex and thus very easy and normal to taste the forbidden fruit. (doesn't mean "all" kids will do)

that's the problem of those kids. ppl should think first before act.

Haha.. do you mean you're brought up from a family that lacks of money, good personality, correct and positive value of life, knowledge, ....etc, but you and your brother still grew up nicely? Even so, how can you be sure if your family got everything, you and your brother could be a lot better than now?

hahahaha, how can you be sure if my family got everything, my and my brother could be a lot better than now? well, would I be Obama?

(You may say you and your brother think you two are good enough and are pretty satisfied with the current stage. However, this is only from your pov, the society might be longing for a better person.)

yes, it is my point of view only. were you talking with Obama's pov? you are so great~

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 19:37

原帖由 Hyde 於 2008-12-18 11:33 發表
i think my girl is on pills....

pills are better than condom, however, your girl should take the pills regularly to make it effective.

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 19:42

Ultraman, I think you and me value things very differently. I'm against abortion. So what's high quality and low quality family? I'm afraid that most families in this world are low to mediocre quality families....so they all shouldn't have babies? If that's the case, then I would NOT be in this world now...LOL

(You may say you and your brother think you two are good enough and are pretty satisfied with the current stage. However, this is only from your pov, the society might be longing for a better person.)

I guess his friends, relatives, parents, siblings, employer, teachers, etc can all confirm if he/she is a good person right? I guess if one's happy about him/herself, then at least he/she should not be suffering right? So growing up for a poor family not necessarily mean sufferings right?

[ 本帖最後由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 20:57 編輯 ]

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 19:45

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 20:37 發表

pills are better than condom, however, your girl should take the pills regularly to make it effective.

oh wait...but pills won't stop spreading your STD??? LOL

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 19:53

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-18 11:45 發表

oh wait...but pills won't stop spreading your STD??? LOL

I think that Hyde should be as clean as a piece of paper...

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 19:55

OK go back to the mother-to-be hates kids...

So because the mom hates kids, then she should have an abortion? That's garbage! To escape from the responsibility of a mistake, the mom yet makes another mistake...

Btw, I rarely see a mom that hates her kids from the heart. How do you know she won't change after giving birth? Also, there's always the dad, grand-parents, etc....

It makes me sick when people think that abortion is the smarter or the more responsible way. Who knows who will suffer at the end? How can you take away the privilege of being born and live?

作者: chunsh 時間: 2008-12-17 20:02

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 18:59 發表
chunsh & hyde,
Go do some research, street kids/trouble teens don't become that way because their parents are low income.

邊__個話街童一定係來自低收入家庭呀
我係話﹐如果一對couple要日做夜做先可以support個小朋友﹐甘點會有時間陪小朋友同埋小朋友學校以外既知識呀?

個的有錢老豆老母"pag"底個仔女自己去做生意/美容/打麻將個的並唔係呢個topic既話題呀

我唔係話男人可以有膽上床之後唔駛負責。不過我覺得大家都係係度吹水唔抹嘴o羅
講者碼﹐邊個唔識呀。講完﹐logout左/close左個browser就唔駛負責

作者: chunsh 時間: 2008-12-17 20:04

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 19:37 發表
點都好啦, 總之我就一定唔會叫女朋友落左佢啦.
唔落左佢, 就唯有生左佢出黎啦. 既然要生佢出黎, 點都要比番個名份女朋友卦. (除非女朋友要仔唔要公啦)

窮, 都可以養到小朋友的. 細個既時候我屋企都好窮, 而家都可以 ...

actually this topic is about moral view of lives and moral views that each of us has are closely related to religions

作者: chunsh 時間: 2008-12-17 20:05

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 20:37 發表

pills are better than condom, however, your girl should take the pills regularly to make it effective.

some girls are reluctant to pills because some people said it can cause cancer
anyone can confirm?

作者: Hyde 時間: 2008-12-17 20:07

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 20:37 發表

pills are better than condom, however, your girl should take the pills regularly to make it effective.

i wish she isn't on pills tho....

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 20:11

原帖由 chunsh 於 2008-12-17 21:02 發表

邊__個話街童一定係來自低收入家庭呀
我係話﹐如果一對couple要日做夜做先可以support個小朋友﹐甘點會有時間陪小朋友同埋小朋友學校以外既知識呀?

not you, I was referring to hyde, he said if parents work day & night, the kids will hang out on the street...so indirectly they could be a low income family

anyway, lots of people work like a dog ga la...so?

[ 本帖最後由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 21:12 編輯 ]

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 20:27

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 19:36 發表

that's the problem of those kids. ppl should think first before act.

I didn't say that is not the problem of those kids (and surely it is their problem, no excuse). But cuz you asked me why that situation can't be avoided, right? I just to tell you why.

hahahaha, how can you be sure if my family got everything, my and my brother could be a lot better than now? well, would I be Obama?

Yes, I can't be that sure. I'm just analyzing probability. It's like, I would say there should be no snow during summer time in Vancouver, but I won't/can't say 100% not. But do you think there is a big chance that would be snowing during summer time in Vancouver?

yes, it is my point of view only. were you talking with Obama's pov? you are so great~

Nope. I don't of Obama's pov, and that's why I'm not planning to have any kids.

[ 本帖最後由 Ultraman 於 2008-12-17 20:31 編輯 ]

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 20:58

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 19:42 發表
Ultraman, I think you and me value things very differently. I'm against abortion. So what's high quality and low quality family? I'm afraid that most families in this world are low to mediocre quality families....so they all shouldn't have babies? If that's the case, then I would NOT be in this world now...LOL

Yes, I think our values are quite different.
First I need to declare, I have no religious background, yet I do not have any intention to against any particular religion.
I know some religious against abortion. However, what's their main purpose? I believe, they think people have no rights to kill a life, no right to "treat others badly". Now the question is, what is the best way (or a good way) to "treat others in good"? Killing a baby seems not right, seems not good; but to raise up a baby with nothing good in hand means good or bad? I think people also have no rights to minimize a baby's future development.
Yes, to "kill" a baby is to take away its life right away. But how if to "ruin" a baby's (a future adult) whole life even it's still alive? Ever heard about these old Chinese statements: "life is so valuable, but love worths a lot more." and "no freedom, rather die." ? There are a lot of things worth so much more than lives. (without particular religious pov.)

And I didn't say/mean low quality families shouldn't have any kid. Back to the original discussing point, I'm comparing "responsible" and "irresponsible" families/parents. Yes, low quality families surely can have kids, yet I think they're less responsible or even irresponsible; but on the other hand, "high quality" families/parents don't necessary mean they are very responsible (because they can have all good elements on hand, but just not acting them out).

I guess his friends, relatives, parents, siblings, employer, teachers, etc can all confirm if he/she is a good person right? I guess if one's happy about him/herself, then at least he/she should not be suffering right? So growing up for a poor family not necessarily mean sufferings right?

All depends on how ambitious and zealous you rank and want your life to be. Yes, there are many people who are satisfied for their current stages and not working on their next stage for further improvement and development. 90 marks is pretty good already, how about 100 marks? Then 100 marks is damn good indeed, but how about 105 marks?...
Of course, this kind of character might not only be brought up by the family itself but also depends on one's own thinking and personality etc.

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 21:29

Killing a baby is to treat someone good, care, responsible, love? Even not talking about this religiously I don't see how this is so. I think being a responsible parent means to do whatever it takes to take care of your kids, not to kill them! Your method is "cut toes to avoid worms". How do you know the kid will be ruined, how much higher (significant?) is the probability of that? I think there are too many unknowns in this equation. So it's OK to kill for these "unknowns"? Have you heard "tomorrow will be a better day"?

According to your logic, it's irresponsible to have kids if you're low quality family, isn't that what you said? So to be responsible (a virtue of human being is that they want to be good and being responsible is a good thing), you shouldn't have kids then right?

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 21:35

Hypothetical case:
If someone lost some limps because of an accident, you should tell him to suicide to end this pain and not ruin the rest of his life? And be responsible for his family/government too so that they don't have to take care of him for the rest of his life? If he doesn't suicide, then he's irresponsible?

[ 本帖最後由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 22:36 編輯 ]

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 21:46

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 21:29 發表
Killing a baby is to treat someone good, care, responsible, love? Even not talking about this religiously I don't see how this is so. I think being a responsible parent means to do whatever it takes ...

Once again, proves that our POV and value is really different.
Despite any religious background, here are some other examples:
- Why telling "lie" is not good but "white lie" is OK? Doesn't any kind of lie mean dishonesty?
- What do you think to put a coma patient "true permanently sleep", is it good or bad to "itself" and "its" family and relatives and friends "it" cares?
- If one day my wife and I being kidnapped, and the terrorist wants to kill either one of us in front of the other, and release the other, what would you choose?
My answer to this: at first I may think to let the terrorist kill myself instead of my wife. But wait, once I got killed and leave my wife behind, it's really cruel and difficult for her to leave alone without me, to face each single heart breaking day for the rest of her life. So I will definitely let my wife being killed, let her life ends over there and I'll face all the heart breaking days.

Debating point: How come I let somebody kills my wife but not myself?

Any thought?

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 21:49

原帖由 chunsh 於 2008-12-18 12:02 發表
我唔係話男人可以有膽上床之後唔駛負責。不過我覺得大家都係係度吹水唔抹嘴o羅
講者碼﹐邊個唔識呀。講完﹐logout左/close左個browser就唔駛負責

可能你係果d 吹水唔抹嘴既人, 但小弟一定唔係.
你信又好, 唔信又好, 唔好問我攞證明, 我證明唔到比你睇, 亦唔需要證明比你睇.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 21:55

If one day my wife and I being kidnapped, and the terrorist wants to kill either one of us in front of the other, and release the other, what would you choose?
My answer to this: at first I may think to let the terrorist kill myself instead of my wife. But wait, once I got killed and leave my wife behind, it's really cruel and difficult for her to leave alone without me, to face each single heart breaking day for the rest of her life. So I will definitely let my wife being killed, let her life ends over there and I'll face all the heart breaking days.

Debating point: How come I let somebody kills my wife but not myself?

you are so kind to your wife.

but I don't think I would 坐以待斃, I would try my best to safe ourselves from the terrorist and I don't think the terrorist would allow you to choose who's gonna be killed first.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 21:58

原帖由 Hyde 於 2008-12-18 12:07 發表

i wish she isn't on pills tho....

do you want her to have your baby?
It is nice! Would you buy him/her a porsche as 滿月 gift? hahaha

j/k

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 22:04

let me try to answer these, see if we're really different...LOL

- Why telling "lie" is not good but "white lie" is OK? Doesn't any kind of lie mean dishonesty?
To me any lie is not good.

- What do you think to put a coma patient "true permanently sleep", is it good or bad to "itself" and "its" family and relatives and friends "it" cares?
If you ask me, I won't.

- If one day my wife and I being kidnapped, and the terrorist wants to kill either one of us in front of the other, and release the other, what would you choose?
I'd say to the terrorist "up to you"...lol I don't think either of us is easily replaceable by the other...so doesn't matter who they kill

[ 本帖最後由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 23:05 編輯 ]

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 22:08

I didn't say that is not the problem of those kids (and surely it is their problem, no excuse). But cuz you asked me why that situation can't be avoided, right? I just to tell you why.

Thanks for your explanation~
but did I ask you why that situation can't be avoided? maybe I forgot la.

Yes, I can't be that sure. I'm just analyzing probability. It's like, I would say there should be no snow during summer time in Vancouver, but I won't/can't say 100% not. But do you think there is a big chance that would be snowing during summer time in Vancouver?

snowing during summer... why not compare it with 火星人侵襲地球?

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 22:09

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 21:29 發表 Have you heard "tomorrow will be a better day"?

This statement obviously is for people currently staying in a tough, difficult, negative situation; but try to say something to comfort and encourage them. Does this statement always work? Yes, only if the someone tries hard to improve his/her life. Which most cases ain't like that.

According to your logic, it's irresponsible to have kids if you're low quality family, isn't that what you said? So to be responsible (a virtue of human being is that they want to be good and being responsible is a good thing), you shouldn't have kids then right?

I say "less responsible" and "irresponsible", depends on different cases.
For example: If the parents are very poor but they still want to have kids, then they can't even feed their kids. OK, then they might have to reply on the government to feed them. In other words, they're "using" (relying) other people's resource/money "plannedly". I will call this irresponsible.
But for the first place, they're not responsible to their kids.

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2008-12-17 22:22

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 21:35 發表
Hypothetical case:
If someone lost some limps because of an accident, you should tell him to suicide to end this pain and not ruin the rest of his life? And be responsible for his family/government too so that they don't have to take care of him for the rest of his life? If he doesn't suicide, then he's irresponsible?

A valid hypothetical case.
OK, there is not his/her fault to lose some of his/her limps (assuming that) though. But the "afterlife" is all depends on himself/herself. If he/she is just sitting/lying down doing nothing, but only waiting for other people's help, waiting for "sponsors", waiting for the government to feed him/her..., that is surely irresponsible. Irresponsible to himself/herself, and irresponsible to the world.
But on the other hand, if he/she "stands up" to face his/her new life, he/she studies hard, he/she tries to find a suitable job, he/she tries to be less independent but still needs to seek for others' help..., he is responsible.

You know the differences among these cases? A very poor family/parent (not only limited to economical poor) KNOWS they're poor, but still ignoring all the possible negative consequence to have kids, this is what I mean irresponsible.

The victim in your hypothetical case didn't plan and didn't know in advance to lose limbs. Only if he is lying down doing nothing, and we're not counting how much and how great his/her achievement would be in the future, he/she is not irresponsible.
Clear?

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 22:26

my story again... (background info: I am 6 years older than Ah Lik)

20 years ago, my father was injured in an accident, he was a site worker (i.e. 地盤佬) and he kept working for 5 more years until he could not bear with the pain. My mother was working in 電子業, she was a 工廠妹. Once she knew that my father could not work again, she found a new job which was a 厭惡性行業, the reason she changed job was because she could make more money to feed the whole family.

she worked hard everyday, my brother and I grew up everyday and she became older and older everyday. Once my brother and I graduated, it was time for her to rest. I am glad that she can finally enjoy her life after years of harsh life. I believe that she is happy with her 2 sons and I am proud of her.

it seems that my story is not related to the topic... but, actually, I was a 未婚 BB. I am glad that my mother gave me chance to arrive to this world.

[ 本帖最後由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-18 14:28 編輯 ]

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2008-12-17 22:34

I say "less responsible" and "irresponsible", depends on different cases.
For example: If the parents are very poor but they still want to have kids, then they can't even feed their kids. OK, then they might have to reply on the government to feed them. In other words, they're "using" (relying) other people's resource/money "plannedly". I will call this irresponsible.
But for the first place, they're not responsible to their kids.

你講晒啦...

It doesn't matter who you're irresponsible to you're still being irresponsible. So to be a good guy, a responsible guy, to your country and family, then low quality family should not have kids right? Isn't it the same thing?

"tomorrow will be better" works most of the time ga wor...given that the current condition is bad...life is full of valleys and peaks, if you're at the bottom, next thing will be a peak (whether big or small), you won't be at the bottom all the time ga wor...I'd say it works most of the time la...LOL

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2008-12-17 22:36

原帖由 Ultraman 於 2008-12-18 14:22 發表
You know the differences among these cases? A very poor family/parent (not only limited to economical poor) KNOWS they're poor, but still ignoring all the possible negative consequence to have kids, this is what I mean irresponsible.

maybe, you are correct. But I am glad that my parents are "irresponsible" to give birth to me. Moneywise, we are poor, and we lived at 廉租屋 in my childhood. Fortunately, they loved me a lot! I (also my brother) was the highest prioirity in their lives. Thanks God that I have them as my parents.

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