溫哥華老友記討論區 - Powered by Discuz! Board

標題: 繁簡有別 [打印本頁]

作者: fishbelly 時間: 2009-3-18 04:23 標題: 繁簡有別

偶爾看到網上一篇爭論關於簡體字同繁體字的文章，如下

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_47458e650100cd9d.html

本人舉腳贊成廢除簡體字，但係請各位看回覆！唔怪得上年 CNN 條友會話中國人係 “暴徒”，雖然我並不同意此說。

作者: 嘉嘉 時間: 2009-3-18 06:31

我一向都討厭簡體字.....

就算依度有得take mandarin我都唔take
因為我驚睇完o的簡體字會搞到我將o的字混淆哂

作者: siumaibb 時間: 2009-3-18 08:56

我一向都討厭簡體字.....

就算依度有得take mandarin我都唔take
因為我驚睇完o的簡體字會搞到我將o的字混淆哂
嘉嘉發表於 2009-3-18 06:31

mandarin 要學，簡體字收皮

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-3-18 09:26

It's always a benefit/credit to learn/speak one more language other than mother tongue, especially we're living in a multi-cultural country.
To demolish a certain 字體 (or to establish a new type) is not as easy as said. When the time you can't change the world, it's better to change yourself la.

作者: salad_bread 時間: 2009-3-18 09:38

so true
if want to do business / deal with China, you'd better learn, at least to read 簡體字

作者: 布小熊 時間: 2009-3-18 09:44

I know how to read both 繁體字 and 簡體字. But I think ppl should learn 繁體字 so as to learn the real meaning behind each chinese character. a lot of the 簡體字 cannot really be explained...

作者: 嘉嘉 時間: 2009-3-18 11:12

yeah
I can read 簡體, but I don't like it

I took japanese in high school even tho I could choose mandarin lol
but I was never interested in mandarin in the first place. I remember that I felt asleep so many times during mandarin class when I was in HK elementary XD

for me it's ok not to speak mandarin
cuz I won't be doing business/dealing with customers anyway~

作者: 嘉嘉 時間: 2009-3-18 11:15

I know how to read both 繁體字 and 簡體字. But I think ppl should learn 繁體字 so as to learn the real meaning behind each chinese character. a lot of the 簡體字 cannot really be explained... ...
布小熊發表於 2009-3-18 10:44

they really should

cuz a lot of the 簡體字 are just using 同音字
it confuses people all the time, for example they use like 面 for 麵, by taking the 麥 away (but 麵 itself tells you what noodel is made of)
but 面 can also be face too. It's just so much better to know 繁體

作者: tofu 時間: 2009-3-18 11:47

"""我一向都討厭簡體字.....

就算依度有得take mandarin我都唔take
因為我驚睇完o的簡體字會搞到我將o的字混淆哂"""

you can just take 繁體字 mandarin class ar, the one that hold by taiwanese teacher

作者: 嘉嘉 時間: 2009-3-18 11:49

9# tofu

吓，你講緊high school定U @@?
因為我o係ubc無聽人講過有台灣老師呢
有我又唔介意學下呀，不過我好快就grad就真....^^;

作者: ricrick 時間: 2009-3-18 11:58

其實，如果你寫開簡體，你就會賴寫繁體

但識睇兩樣都冇壞

作者: tofu 時間: 2009-3-18 12:07

depends on your schools, i don't know ubc la.
but if you want to learn mandarin, you don't have to learn it from ubc ar,
college, school board or private, lots of choices ar.

作者: claichan 時間: 2009-3-18 13:08

I know how to read both 繁體字 and 簡體字. But I think ppl should learn 繁體字 so as to learn the real meaning behind each chinese character. a lot of the 簡體字 cannot really be explained... ...
布小熊發表於 2009-3-18 10:44

Same here and totally agree with you...

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-3-18 14:38

Every language have their value to exist. For example, Korean words are like plain symbols to me, how can people know the words' meaning just by looking at their outlook? Even for English, do people know the actual meaning only by looking at their spelling?

I know Chinese words are quite different, they evolved from ancient time (象形文字), and many of the words used nowadays still have the "idea" behind, but not always work.
The example of "麵" might be a good example, yet, not all 麵 made from "麥" or only from "麥" anyways.

作者: fibbi 時間: 2009-3-18 15:10

Every language have their value to exist. For example, Korean words are like plain symbols to me, how can people know the words' meaning just by looking at their outlook? Even for English, do people k ...
Ultraman 發表於 2009-3-18 15:38

That's why by reading the word, we can get into the root of the meaning of the word. That's also part of the culture. The simplified word just "kill" the culture in most cases.
Take the "noodle" word in your example, noodle comes from flour, which is also made from wheat. It makes perfect sense.

作者: goldie 時間: 2009-3-18 15:12

我喜歡正體字，
到圖書館找中文書看，
也只選擇用正體字印刷的書。
但是我陪長輩看國語劇集，
字幕卻都是簡體字唷！
是不是喜歡正體字的人，
成了少數民族了呢？

作者: fibbi 時間: 2009-3-18 15:15

16# goldie

Those mainland TV drama, only simplified word subtitles are available wor...then just no choice la.

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-3-18 16:50

本帖最後由 Ultraman 於 2009-3-18 16:52 編輯

That's why by reading the word, we can get into the root of the meaning of the word. That's also part of the culture. The simplified word just "kill" the culture in most cases.
Take the "noodle" word in your example, noodle comes from flour, which is also made from wheat. It makes perfect sense.
fibbi 發表於 2009-3-18 15:10

I meant, for English, people can't "guess" the meaning just by looking at the spelling of the words. According to Chinese culture, yep, we can guess/know the meaning of some of the words just by looking at them, yet, that is not a must, and not a proper way to learn/use a language.
I just quoted "麵" as further discussion, which stated by someone else but not me earlier, if someone think "麵" must be made by some kind of flour or wheat, that might be not too objective, because besides the ingredient, the word "麵" also stand for the "form" (shape) of this particular food.
Many Chinese words don't "appear" as the real meaning as they do. We have to learn their actual meanings anyways, I won't bother to "guess" their meanings just by looking at them (which might not be accurate).
I don't hate simplified Chinese, but I agree it might be inconvenience for HKese (and Taiwanees) cuz it's not popularly learnt. However, people can treat learning it as another knowledge, which could be valuable in our daily lives.
Think about, maybe more and more Western people can speak Mandarin and write simplified Chinese better than we "Chinese". lol

作者: fibbi 時間: 2009-3-18 17:33

The word 麵 is made up of the major ingredient, which is flour (or wheat), and the other part is the sound of the word. It's not really to do with the shape of noodle.

Anyway, even in English (which is derived from Latin), there is also study of Etymology. Of course I'm no expert in the Linguistic field. But language is (and should be) more than just a symbol of representing some meaning. By changing the form of the word, we are losing history and part of the culture.
In all, I"m not opposing the learning of simplified word. It's still the official language of mainland China. We should be able to read, for practical reason. But in my opinion we should start learning 繁體字 first, so that we understand the deeper meaning of the word and the language itself.

作者: chunsh 時間: 2009-3-18 17:42

to those who refuse to learn 簡體字:
I dont like reading 簡體字 too
but think, the country that create 簡體字 (our mother country) got the money and power now. Do you want to fight with the $$$

作者: jake123 時間: 2009-3-18 19:02

Didn't simplification start before communist party gained power?

作者: 嘉嘉 時間: 2009-3-18 19:25

I heard it's after

people say 簡體 is a product of the commie

作者: tofu 時間: 2009-3-18 19:30

"""Didn't simplification start before communist party gained power?"""

yes, but official character simplifications was introuduced after prc was formed. and people are forced to use it in around 80s.

作者: 嘉嘉 時間: 2009-3-18 19:30

I meant, for English, people can't "guess" the meaning just by looking at the spelling of the words. According to Chinese culture, yep, we can guess/know the meaning of some of the words just by look ...
Ultraman 發表於 2009-3-18 17:50

of course you can tell the meaning of an english word by reading it @_@

most of the scientific terms in fact has meaning, like fibbi pointed out, which is derived from latin. (well cuz I study science, so I know many scientific terms have meaning of each part of the word. Maybe there are many more similar cases in the art field too)

作者: 嘉嘉 時間: 2009-3-18 19:31

20# chunsh

I guess I would rather study more english la

作者: 嘉嘉 時間: 2009-3-18 19:33

12# tofu

well I am not desperate to learn Mandarin, so that's ok la, haha
I prefer learning more japanese @w@ and never regret taking the courses

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-3-18 21:45

of course you can tell the meaning of an english word by reading it @_@

most of the scientific terms in fact has meaning, like fibbi pointed out, which is derived from latin. (well cuz I study scien ...
嘉嘉發表於 2009-3-18 19:30

I don't mean to argue with you, but just by looking at the spelling of "w"..."o"..."r"..."d", how can people tell it means "文字" (one of the meanings)? Does "w" tell anything by itself? Does "o" tell anything by itself? ...... People learn the word as a whole, as "word", whenever people see this word, they can tell the meaning (of course they read the spelling and know the meaning).

Let's go back to Chinese, OK, the example is "麵". People must have knew the words "麥" and "面" first, but why not the pronunciation of "麵" is not "麥" but "面"? People still need to learn the word by itself, right?

Of course, every word has a meaning (or more). Yes, you can "tell the meaning of the scientific terms" because you already learnt them. Can you tell the meaning of a word that you never seen/learnt before just by looking at its spelling? That's what I meant.

作者: fishbelly 時間: 2009-3-19 01:47

Didn't simplification start before communist party gained power?
jake123 發表於 2009-3-18 20:02

Yes, and the spin (Commies claim anyway!) on using simplified is that firstly, it's easy to learn and read so that it could lower iliteracy; secondly it's the political trick to make people think the "past has gone" and there comes a new set of rules and fonts

Beside simplifying Chinese writing our lovely chairman Mao also promotes Pinying, which makes chinese language easier to communicate with western world. I personally think it's OK and convienient to use english piniying as chinese input, but of coz it could create many "same pronounciation different words different meanings" problem....

作者: fishbelly 時間: 2009-3-19 01:52

本帖最後由 fishbelly 於 2009-3-19 02:55 編輯

"...don't mean to argue with you, but just by looking at the spelling of "w"..."o"..."r"..."d", how can people tell it means "文字" (one of the meanings)? Does "w" tell anything by itself? Does "o" tell anything by itself? ...... People learn the word as a whole, as "word", whenever people..." Ultraman

that's a whole set of differnt values btn East and West.

Generally Latin based languages and writings are deemed to be more precise, easy to get to the point, various Chinese words are picture based, which is quite ambiguous but very artistic....

作者: fibbi 時間: 2009-3-19 11:25

27# Ultraman

Further discussion. Every language, we need to learn from basic "blocks" first. In Chinese, there are 4 methods of making up each "word": 會意，假借，象形，形聲
Some words are strictly derived from picture (象形). e.g. Sun, Moon, Mountain. And after many years the "pictures" turn to strokes and becomes the word we use today.
Some words are derived from the sound. Some from the "meaning". But of course, you need know quite many basic characters in Chinese. Why the word "noodle" use the sound of "min" but not the "wheat" part. I don't know. All I know is that it makes sense.

Just by looking at the word, especially in Chinese, we can guess the meaning (or how it pronouns).
Say in English (or latin), if we see anything "optometrist", "opto...." we know it's something eye-related.

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-3-19 12:06

I also know a little background about what you mentioned for the Chinese language, for how they were formed and made up.
However, only a portion of Chinese words you can guess out their actual meaning by those methods, not every single word is like that. And the pronunciation part is even more complicated, why you think the pronunciation of "麵" is "面" is making sense but not "麥" instead, because you already learnt the words and you "knew" the actual answer, not because of you never seen this word before but you can pronounce it correctly for the first time.

Regarding for your another example involved something "opto...". Well, if you never know the word "opto" before, how would you guess the meaning of the words that might be related to it?

More examples, "apple" and "pineapple", (providing that you only know the word apple, but the first time to see pineapple) the only hint might be, they are both fruits, but how does a pineapple look like and taste like?
You know a person who sings is a singer, then you may think a person who cook must be a "cooker" (providing that you never know this word before). That makes sense, right?
This is what I meant, "can't guess the actual meaning of the word only by looking at its spelling". At least, it doesn't work every time.

作者: fibbi 時間: 2009-3-19 17:14

31# Ultraman

I guess no language you can tell all meaning of the word by just "looking" at the word. Need to learn a lot of "basic" words before we have some understand la, not only in Chinese.
But Chinese langauge is actually a bit better to understand because there are certain words DO come strictly from picture lor.
Anyway, back to topic, I think we should learn 繁體字 before simplified word. It's easier to switch from 繁體字 to simplify but not the other way round la.

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-3-19 17:24

31# Ultraman

Anyway, back to topic, I think we should learn 繁體字 before simplified word. It's easier to switch from 繁體字 to simplify but not the other way round la.
fibbi 發表於 2009-3-19 17:14

Agree. It's like to learn the regular form of English words before their abbreviation. Haha...

作者: tofu 時間: 2009-3-19 19:09

"""why you think the pronunciation of "麵" is "面" is making sense but not "麥" instead"""

because 麥 is 部首. there is a formula to pronoun chinese character. of course there are exceptions, but exception is exception

作者: 嘉嘉 時間: 2009-3-19 19:33

The very main point is:
You don't get confusion in 繁體 like the 面 issue in 簡體

putting 一睇個字就知佢咩意思依個問題 aside
each word has it's own distinct character/appearance in 繁體

there's no problem to have same pronounciation for different words
as long as they are not over using the same word for every other meanings

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-3-19 19:53

"""why you think the pronunciation of "麵" is "面" is making sense but not "麥" instead"""

because 麥 is 部首. there is a formula to pronoun chinese character. of course there are exceptions, but e ...
tofu 發表於 2009-3-19 19:09

Yes, you're right. However, when do people know what is exception and what is not? As the word as simple as "助", neither it pronounces as "且" nor "力".
But on the other hand, simplified Chinese might be easier for people to pronounce (and write).

Anyways, I'm not going to discuss it any further.
I think it's up to personal preference to learn simplified Chinese. To me, to know one more language is always a benefit/credit.

作者: tofu 時間: 2009-3-19 21:17

yes, learning one more subject is a benefit/credit.  but if you don't have time to learn them all, what would your preference to learn first.

so you believe simplified chinese has no exception at all.  if someone knows nothing about a language, don't you think s/he can guess about that language. we are talking about a person who has a basic knowledge of a language then s/he can guess a word that s/he doesn't know.
no matter language, math or...., everything has exception, under exceptional case, we need to remember it.  in a regular day, we are talking about normal situation, reasonable person &...

作者: 嘉嘉 時間: 2009-3-19 22:27

37# tofu
exactly, basic knowlege is the point

music is a language
math is a language
chemistry is a language
physics is a language

if you know nothing about them, you can tell nothing of them
once you know the basic, it's so much easier to approach

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-3-20 00:34

Yes, it's the point of "basic knowledge", and thus it applies to all/most "languages". So, once you have learnt the "basic" of simplified Chinese, it's just a piece of cake for further guessing.

For the priority, there is not a must for everyone. If time for learning a new language (or any other kind of new knowledge) is limited, depends on one's daily use and need and how urgent the situation is, one can set his/her own schedule in order to fulfill his/her need/interest.
But generally speaking, if you are living in HK/Van, you can't go wrong to learn all the following three languages: Cantonese, English, and Mandarin for speaking (by alphabetical order, not the importance); and English, Simplified Chinese, and Traditional Chinese for written.

作者: salad_bread 時間: 2009-3-20 00:39

未開始學就話難，呢個係懶人既借口

作者: sheep 時間: 2009-3-20 09:50

Yes, you're right. However, when do people know what is exception and what is not? As the word as simple as "助", neither it pronounces as "且" nor "力".
But on the other hand, simplified Chinese mig ...
Ultraman 發表於 2009-3-19 20:53

一That's the beauty of Chinese character 一字一音一義

歡迎光臨溫哥華老友記討論區 (http://www.loyaukee.com/forum/)