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標題: 六四民主海嘯泡沫化的現象 from 富爸爸 [打印本頁]

作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-4 11:18 標題: 六四民主海嘯泡沫化的現象 from 富爸爸

六四民主海嘯泡沫化的現象富爸爸 [email protected]

年近六四20週年﹐ 我首先向當年所有的六四死者默哀。六四歲我國民主發展過程中發生的最大民主海嘯泡沫﹐ 造成很多社會混亂。自從鄧小平推行改革開放以來 (證明以前未改革開放)﹐在經濟方面取得非常高速的發展﹐在政治上也逐步邁向開放。當時由於在經濟高速發展的過程中﹐產生了一些社會問題﹐社會上出現了很多要求民主的聲音﹐尤其是一些知識分子﹐非常響往西方的資本主義制度﹐認為只要實行了西方的民主制度﹐就可以解決我國經濟高速發展所產生的社會問題。一個有10多億人口的國家﹐80%以上是農民﹐有很多還是文盲﹐衣食住行也還未解決﹐要發展民主談何容易。這種不顧現實政治經濟環境﹐盲目追求西方民主制度﹐令我國的民主發展出現了泡沫化的現象。
多人爭論六四悲劇的誰是誰非﹐每年六四前後香港的泛民主派就會挑起話題﹐要求平反六四﹐但是泛民主派卻從來沒有反思過在六四悲劇中﹐他們所擔當的角式對悲劇發生所應負的責任﹐沒有他們的推波助瀾﹐就不會發展到如此的悲劇結局。
相信絕大部份人都支持民主﹐但是發展民主要循序漸進﹐不能為了發展民主不顧現實而影響社會穩定。六四就是一個民主泡沫爆破的例子。本來在文化大革命後﹐我國逐步邁向民主﹐經濟開始高速發展﹐民生也得到了改善﹐中國在經歷了文革後逐步復原﹐但是到了1989年﹐由於當時要求民主的步伐過於急進﹐影響了社會的穩定﹐六四發生後﹐我國的民主發展倒退了幾年﹐而經濟也受到了相當影響。當時我在國內和香港的生意﹐也同樣受到了影響﹐營商環境如幾年前的沙士期間差不多﹐要幾年後才逐步恢復。
當年六四期間﹐我也身在北京﹐看到事態的發展越來越令人擔憂﹐最初學生們本來是和平示威表達意見﹐到後來整個北京巿幾乎變成無政府狀態。北京政府容忍學生們佔領天安門廣場兩個多月﹐全世界沒一個國家可以接受這樣長時間的示威。學生們幻想能在一夜之間變天。更不幸的是﹐「香港支聯會」將數以百萬元捐款帶到北京支持示威學生﹐在1989年﹐北京大學一級教授月薪只有67元人民幣﹐大部份示威學生口袋裡只有兩三元﹐從來未曾面對過這樣巨額捐款﹐因此很多學生不願離開天安門廣場﹐抱著等派錢的心態﹐令事態發展到不可收拾﹐使政府不得不採取清場行動﹐恢復社會秩序。
回故我國過去20年﹐由於改革開放及穩定的政治環境﹐大家少談政治多做事﹐使我國在經濟發展上取得驕人成就﹐人民生活得到很大改善。世界輪流轉﹐現在中國外匯儲備有兩萬多億美元﹐連美國都要求中國購買她們的債券。在1989年﹐當時我國的外匯只有十幾億美元﹐而且還欠日本幾百億元外債﹐加上美國的圍堵﹐蘇聯對我國虎視眈眈。在外憂內困的環境下﹐如果當時沒有及時果斷地平息六四風波﹐整個社會就會陷入無休止的社會運動中﹐可能成為比民化大革命更壞的運動﹐就沒有今天的國富民強。
港目前正面對金融海嘯和經濟發展的問題﹐需要一個和諧及穩定的社會環境﹐才能克服困境走出陰霾。以前香港人只顧賺錢不談政治﹐香港才能發展成為亞洲四小龍之一。現在香港人天天爭拗﹐小事化大事﹐事事責罵﹐令官員們做事畏首畏尾﹐抱著少做少錯心態﹐香港又如何能克服金融海嘯。同樣是特區的澳門﹐回歸後上下一心﹐發展比香港快而好。我呼籲香港各界不要再為六四而爭論﹐不要再將六四話題帶入香港的議會﹐六四已經過去了20年﹐跟香港的現在和將來的發展和民生都是沒有任何關係﹐要拋開歷史包袱﹐各界同心合力搞好香港﹐先搞好經濟﹐先解決民生問題﹐ 然後才能循序漸進發展民主﹐ 這才是香港的生存之道。鄧小平說過一國兩制五十年不變﹐ 回歸後香港社會不停在變﹐ 請香港人記住「井水不可犯河水」﹐ 請香港人三思三思﹗
﹗﹗
2009年6月4日香港

作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-4 11:21

本帖最後由 soli 於 2009-6-4 12:24 編輯

當李卓仁只帶了五百萬上北京﹐ 五百萬除以三千個學生。
5000000/3000 = 1667
每人有成千七蚊﹐ 即係一個大學教授兩年既薪金﹐ 唔怪得知唔肯走啦。

加拿大最平既教授都要五皮一年
如果去示威靜坐就有可能分到10皮野。。。
我諗我都會好想參與~

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-4 11:31

The same shameless accusations and justifications disguised under a pretense of rationality.

更不幸的是﹐「香港支聯會」將數以百萬元捐款帶到北京支持示威學生﹐在1989年﹐北京大學一級教授月薪只有67元人民幣﹐大部份示威學生口袋裡只有兩三元﹐從來未曾面對過這樣巨額捐款﹐因此很多學生不願離開天安門廣場﹐抱著等派錢的心態﹐令事態發展到不可收拾﹐使政府不得不採取清場行動﹐恢復社會秩序。

Feel free to insult yourself, but don't attempt to accuse 支聯會 and the students alike for greed that was never there in the first place. Doing so only makes you a more despicable person than you already are.

回故我國過去20年﹐由於改革開放及穩定的政治環境﹐大家少談政治多做事﹐使我國在經濟發展上取得驕人成就﹐人民生活得到很大改善。世界輪流轉﹐現在中國外匯儲備有兩萬多億美元﹐連美國都要求中國購買她們的債券。在1989年﹐當時我國的外匯只有十幾億美元﹐而且還欠日本幾百億元外債﹐加上美國的圍堵﹐蘇聯對我國虎視眈眈。在外憂內困的環境下﹐如果當時沒有及時果斷地平息六四風波﹐整個社會就會陷入無休止的社會運動中﹐可能成為比民化大革命更壞的運動﹐就沒有今天的國富民強。

Again, the same spiel echoed by the CCP propaganda machine and 9up Bowtie alike. If June 4 wasn't suppressed, China's economy wouldn't be what it is today? Total bull****! Had reforms taken places, China wouldn't have lost 2 years to sanctions and international boycott, and the country would have flourished even more than it has today. Besides, when is it ever ok to murder your own citizens en masse in exchange for economic profits?!

Another shameless post from a shameless CCP dog...

-Lik

作者: ricrick 時間: 2009-6-4 11:46

死左D錢帶入棺材啊？我比10億你，你同我去碌爆個頭啦！

無共產黨，中國洗甘窮？你洗鬼過黎加拿大啊？

作者: chunsh 時間: 2009-6-4 12:13

死左D錢帶入棺材啊？我比10億你，你同我去碌爆個頭啦！

無共產黨，中國洗甘窮？你洗鬼過黎加拿大啊？
ricrick 發表於 2009-6-4 12:46

講真﹐係我地的香港人先甘憎共產黨者
睇京奧就知啦﹐大陸既人都好愛國愛黨
你唔係認為香港人可以代表大陸13億人既意願呀馬

作者: ricrick 時間: 2009-6-4 13:24

你有眼睇世界上有邊個共產黨有好後場？
大陸既人當然愛國，6.4都係愛國運動，係想國家富強，只有共產黨現為叛亂

民主係一條必然既路，雖然民主有不足之處，但民主得特點就是有自我調整功能
當一個國家走到未路，佢可以change，還有希望，吾係點會有奧巴馬？
一黨專政根本不能自我檢討，貪污腐敗，吾係點會有毒奶粉，豆腐渣？
無言論自由，無新聞自由，今日大陸互聯網遭大舉封鎖，如果d人甘滿意，點會有草泥馬、河蟹呢d野？

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-4 18:01

死左D錢帶入棺材啊？我比10億你，你同我去碌爆個頭啦！

無共產黨，中國洗甘窮？你洗鬼過黎加拿大啊？
ricrick 發表於 2009-6-5 03:46

大陸真係有唔少人為左錢, 斬左自己既手腳黎香港行乞的...
真係好可悲.

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-5 00:09

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2009-6-5 01:10 編輯

無共產黨，中國洗甘窮？你洗鬼過黎加拿大啊？
ricrick 發表於 2009-6-4 12:46

Well, not totally true though. Just look at the slumdog millionaire in India.
India has been democratic for decades and yet they are way poorer than communist China, corruption is way worse than China.
Any of course, there are so many Indian immigrants here in Canada as well.

作者: ricrick 時間: 2009-6-5 01:16

印度勁多宗教、階級野，好難搞

中國如果早六十年發展，現在可能超越日本都吾定
但民族質數好難講...

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-5 01:28

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2009-6-5 02:30 編輯

印度勁多宗教、階級野，好難搞

中國如果早六十年發展，現在可能超越日本都吾定
但民族質數好難講...
ricrick 發表於 2009-6-5 02:16

不如話清朝開始法展，重勁啊。
民族質素當然會高啦，睇吓香港台灣質素都算幾高。

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-5 08:17

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-5 08:20 編輯

9# ricrick
It was President Jiang pronounced that " 'The quality of Chinese nationals is low and should not be eligible to general election" , during an international press release, anyone read news should remember, nobody insults Chinese worse.
That is something I do not agree, The quality of Chinese nationals are low because of 60 years CCP in power, not necessary our gene. China is a great civilization with over 5000 years of consecutive history, bar none in the whole world.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-5 10:49

9# ricrick
It was President Jiang pronounced that " 'The quality of Chinese nationals is low and should not be eligible to general election" , during an international press release, anyone read ne ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-5 09:17

If you believe that is what President Jiang means, then I would suggest you to read some more or seek help from someone else to find out (or understand) what he said and what he means.

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-5 17:40

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-5 17:41 編輯

If you believe that is what President Jiang means, then I would suggest you to read some more or seek help from someone else to find out (or understand) what he said and what he means.
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-5 10:49

That was exactly what he meant, when asked whether China would hold general election after Hong Kong.
Ask anyone in HK media would tell you the same thing.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-5 17:44

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-5 18:50 編輯

That was exactly what he meant, when asked whether China would hold general election after Hong Kong.
Ask anyone in HK media would tell you the same thing.
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-5 18:40

Can someone please explain it to Mr. Somewhereintime?

Just a hint for you -- look at the general election in Taiwan. Did you get the hint?

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-5 17:50

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-5 17:57 編輯

I actually talked to some journalists in HK just to confirm,
unfortunately, it is true.
Mr. Bok Bok Cheung from 1470 had talked on the issue for a few day,
hope some LYK will remember
Please correct me if I'm wrong

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-5 20:47

Just a hint for you -- look at the general election in Taiwan. Did you get the hint?
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-5 17:44

Funny how a 50 cents poster such as yourself is trying to use Taiwan as an example, because in my mind, Taiwan is a model example of how democracy and freedom has flourished. From the old authoritarian days of the Elder Chiang, Taiwan underwent reforms and turned itself into the flourishing democracy that it is now. Certainly their system is far from perfect at the moment, but it is vastly superior to what PRC can hope to become in the foreseeable future.

A full explanation of why Taiwanese democracy has taken huge strides forward would be much too difficult for you to understand. Suffice to say that under the Taiwanese democratic system, voters have thrown the ultra corrupt Ah Bien out of Office peacefully using the power of their ballots. Taiwanese people have a CHOICE of who they want to put into Office to serve them! Do Mainland Chinese citizens get to enjoy this right?!

More importantly, if you have any sort of understanding in Taiwanese history, you'll know what the 228 Incident is. In comparison to 6.4, it puts the CCP to even more shame! Long story short, the 228 incident developed from widespread riots, demonstrations, protests, etc. in Taipei, and in the end, the KMT army stepped in to suppress the protests. Thousands of citizens died in the suppression process, and the KMT have since been repeatedly slammed for the citizens' deaths.

Notice any similarities to 6.4 here? But guess what? 李登輝, the ROC President at the time, came out and issued an official apology to all victims of the 228 incident. Compensations were made out to surviving families of the victims, and Feb 28 is made into a national holiday to commemorate the victims.

That is what happened in Taiwan. The KMT has to admit their crimes and apologize because the democratic systems essentially would ensure their doom if they didn't. That is the power and value of democracy. Do you see the same thing happening in Mainland China with the CCP's one party rule?!

-Lik

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-5 23:02

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2009-6-6 00:12 編輯

Funny how a 50 cents poster such as yourself is trying to use Taiwan as an example, because in my mind, Taiwan is a model example of how democracy and freedom has flourished. From the old authoritari ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-5 21:47

Lik, by using Taiwan as an example, you basically agree to China's plan of economic reforms before democratic reforms. If you truly support Taiwan's path to democracy, then you should be smart enough to realize that mainland China is now going along the same path. Taiwan had experienced rapid economic growth long before they had any presidential election. It wasn't like the KMT allowed democratic election in Taiwan at he very beginning. But eventually they allowed democratic election. The same thing will happen in China. Economic growth provides a sound basis for democratic reforms.
Notice the number of decades between Taiwan's 228 incident and Lee Deng Hui's apology.

In fact, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong had experience rapid economic growth long before they had any form of democratic election.

The per capita GDP of Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong are way higher than that of slumdog millionaire India. Even mainland China has way higher per capita GDP than slumdog millionaire India.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-6 02:11

Judging by the writing style and tone of the previous post, I highly suspect the above post is written by a different (and possibly higher ranked and more intelligent) 50 cents party member. But what do I know as an average Joe~

We can leave debate of whether economic stability must precede democracy for another day, but as the 3rd or 4th biggest economy in the World, China's economic prowess has certainly reach the stage where it can support social and political reforms. And the country is in dire need of political reforms because faults are bursting everywhere in the current system! Corruption is widespread and rampant. There are laws set out to govern the land but nobody (including the various levels of governments themselves) follows them. Fundamental humans rights are non-existent precisely when you need them to be there to protect you. The only thing China has is its vast economic prowess.

Simply put, today's China cannot follow the same slow pace that ROC was taking in Taiwan. The world is a different place -- a much faster place. People are better educated, much more sophisticated, and information travels at a pace that no one can even dream of back in the 40's. And PRC's problems are far more severe and in much direr need of addressing than ROC' problems 60 years ago.

Change certainly needs time, and I am not saying China needs to become a democracy overnight. But the smallest steps, as illustrated in Charter 2008 (零八憲章), can at least be put to start. But instead of heeding to this most sincere pledge, CCP decides to crack down on the authors of the Charter. The Mothers of Tiananmen and other victims have already waited for 20 years. How much longer do these victims have to wait?!

No amount of logical reasoning can be said to defend the CCP.

-Lik

作者: maldini 時間: 2009-6-6 02:58

本帖最後由 maldini 於 2009-6-6 04:04 編輯

testing

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-6 03:25

Funny how a 50 cents poster such as yourself is trying to use Taiwan as an example, because in my mind, Taiwan is a model example of how democracy and freedom has flourished. From the old authoritari ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-5 21:47

You need to understand a type of general election reflects a much grater spectrum of economic, political and social aspects behind it. It reflects the economic strength, social structure, education level of its population, political structure, legal system, and much more of a country.

A goal is important but how to achieve the goal is even more critical.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-6 09:39

You need to understand a type of general election reflects a much grater spectrum of economic, political and social aspects behind it. It reflects the economic strength, social structure, education level of its population, political structure, legal system, and much more of a country.

A goal is important but how to achieve the goal is even more critical.
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-6 03:25

Please read my previous post again:

Change certainly needs time, and I am not saying China needs to become a democracy overnight. But the smallest steps, as illustrated in Charter 2008 (零八憲章), can at least be put to start. But instead of heeding to this most sincere pledge, CCP decides to crack down on the authors of the Charter. The Mothers of Tiananmen and other victims have already waited for 20 years. How much longer do these victims have to wait?!
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 02:11

The charter is not drafted by some foreign powers. Instead, it was written by Chinese scholars, activists, human rights advocates, well-known people in China, and supported and signed by tens of thousands of Mainland Chinese before it is "harmonized" by the CCP.

-Lik

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-6 15:54

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-6 16:55 編輯

Please read my previous post again:

The charter is not drafted by some foreign powers. Instead, it was written by Chinese scholars, activists, human rights advocates, well-known people in China, an ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 10:39

I have to leave this topic to you to think about it because it requires much background knowledge of politic, social, culture and history and other information to explain. I don’t think I can do a good job on explaining it. I am not saying I am smarter than you or anything else. It is just because I had read the relating materials.

I do not say what CCP had done is right, but I understand the reasons (not necessary I would support it) behind it.

作者: salad_bread 時間: 2009-6-6 20:50

don't use Taiwan as an example
China should follow India
India is a good example for 民主自由

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