溫哥華老友記討論區 - Powered by Discuz! Board

標題: 改革歷程 [打印本頁]

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-5 00:19 標題: 改革歷程

小妹學識不多！最近，聽到／讀到太多支持和反對的聲音！
我學識淺薄，正如男友所說，多看些書才作結論吧！
越是做research，越是迷惑！

在各位各執一詞時，大家也不是當時人！
對我們都有看過不同的片子，但我們身在天安門嗎?
我這樣說，不代表我不信任六四，而是希望大家除了悲痛的心情外，更著實地去做多點research 好為下一代作教育！

作這樣幼稚的罵戰，我們又和中國裡的憤青有何分別?
以下是下載趙紫陽錄音的回憶錄改革歷程！
不喜勿看，但我覺得從他口中的記錄，最少能助我們填補一些空白！當然你們也可選擇不相信！

http://forum.talkonly.net/redirect.php?tid=8453&goto=lastpost

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-5 00:21

你真係好有心啊~

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-5 00:25

Thanks McJohnJohn.

If i can buy one in Vancouver, I would buy an original one to support this book.
Probably will buy one when I go back to HK next time.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-5 00:28

不如我幫你買, 再郵寄比你啦~

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-5 00:31

but how do I pay you though?

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-5 00:51

but how do I pay you though?
Nam 發表於 2009-6-5 16:31

我check 下幾多錢一本先啦!
如果唔係太貴, 送本比你又點話woh~

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-5 00:52

LOL
I was just teasing you but thank you for your kindness.
I can ask my mom to get me one next year.

作者: ricrick 時間: 2009-6-5 00:56

錯對與否，不重要，重要是義意
人，可以性冷感，但吾可以冷血
六四學生可能是部署，計策出了錯誤，不早早散去
但共產黨要清場，為可不用掃把？而是用機關槍呢？
巨石與雞蛋的對比，有些少良知，都知誰是誰非

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-5 00:58

120 蚊(港紙) 一本之麻, 真係送比你又點話丫~
最好你就可以傳比其他LYK member 睇, 咁呢120蚊就更加值得用!
不過, 好似要訂貨, 等我得閒去書局睇下啦!

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-5 01:00

錯對與否，不重要，重要是義意
人，可以性冷感，但吾可以冷血
六四學生可能是部署，計策出了錯誤，不早早散去
但共產黨要清場，為可不用掃把？而是用機關槍呢？
巨石與雞蛋的對比，有些少良知，都知誰是誰非 ...
ricrick 發表於 2009-6-5 16:56

如果掃把清到場既話, 果位揸掃把既一定係Harry Potter...

作者: ricrick 時間: 2009-6-5 01:18

你個gag好爛

作者: MoiRhapsody 時間: 2009-6-5 01:28

RICRICK.
我永遠站在雞蛋那一邊。

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-5 01:37

你個gag好爛
ricrick 發表於 2009-6-5 17:18

乜爛得過你話用掃把清場咩?

作者: jh66 時間: 2009-6-5 07:23

我都想買,請問有網站買香港書嗎?

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-5 07:50

12# MoiRhapsody
I have to agree with you young and smart group.

作者: goldie 時間: 2009-6-5 08:29

對不起，不是挑戰什麼，而是真的想再問 ... 在天安門事件中，為什麼把政府和學生放在同等地位來問責呢？他們不是處於同等權力位置啊。

例1：你 babysit 個衰仔，他又要玩火又要玩刀，還說粗口... 最後，你斬斷他的手。你和個衰仔，應該放在同等權力地位來問責嗎？

例2：你是個醫生，診所來了個顛婆, 她又要和你上床又說要告你 ... 最後，你用手術刀劃花她的面。你和個顛婆，應該放在同等權力地位來問責嗎？

例3：你是政府，廣場來了班討厭的學生，他們要求這要求那，還搞什麼絕食，說些不識大體的話 ... 最後，你用坦克車輾他們。你和班學生，應該放在同等權力地位來問責嗎？

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-5 08:41

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-5 08:44 編輯

16# goldie
Students maybe young and naive.
The Leaders should be mature and educated enough for crisis assessment and management, or they should not be sitting at their position or making any fatal decision.
It is governing a large country, not war-time measure.

作者: siumaibb 時間: 2009-6-5 09:21

總之用軍隊對付自己國家手無寸鐵既平民就點講都唔通。
d學生可能係玩大左，但係佢地唔抵死
最衰就係屈佢地顛覆政府，仲要殺左咁多人都唔認。

如果64中國政府無錯，加拿大都唔會有咁多香港人啦

作者: boss2007 時間: 2009-6-5 09:47

the download only 35.68 m ?

will let you guys know after unzip & read ...

thanx anyway

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-5 10:06

Nam (and probably everyone else),

As you read the book, may I remind you that the book is written from the perspective of 趙紫陽 alone, and therefore is likely to carry at least a little bit of bias? There is certainly a lot of good detail and information there, but do not take everything at face value. Being a wise and sophisticated person means you have to be vigilant about exercising your own judgement at all times. This is not a book you just read. It's something that requires you to constantly think about what is being said and come up with the best conclusion based on what you know.

-Lik

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-5 23:40

I totally understand about it's solely from the perspective of 趙紫陽. My bf warned me as well.
However, he is a key person of 6/4 and his word really important to us.

Everybody would be bias because we all have our own opinion but he being the key role in 64.
His POV at least can fill the empty gap.

I personally think it's better to finish reading this book. Then, do your own research and think clearly before get into any serious argument over the net.

作者: chunsh 時間: 2009-6-5 23:58

對不起，不是挑戰什麼，而是真的想再問 ... 在天安門事件中，為什麼把政府和學生放在同等地位來問責呢？他們不是處於同等權力位置啊。

例1：你 babysit 個衰仔，他又要玩火又要玩刀，還說粗口... 最後，你斬斷他的 ...
goldie 發表於 2009-6-5 09:29

一大班人﹐就算開頭點樣有大志都好﹐group埋一班"ou" 係一笪地方太耐﹐總會變成
一o的大家都唔想見到既situation。仲有﹐係o甘既situation之下﹐樹大﹐一定有
"fu"枝。我聽一個北京來的朋友講﹐民運後期(鎮壓之前)係有人打死過解放軍/武警
(拿唔好話我道聽途說呀﹐你地好多的所謂見證﹐都係話聽當時話自己係現場既人講
)。
我係政府﹐我都會選擇清場。我會預期我會有槍聲﹐因為人太多﹐太亂。你鎮壓﹐
更有人反抗。場面控制唔到既﹐我會叫軍人/武警開槍(要知道﹐天安門個陣時甘多
人﹐如果你係武警﹐以武警/平民既比例﹐一人爆你一個樽﹐都幾係野呀)。

不過﹐我就唔會一開始就開槍﹐同埋我點都唔會用坦克黎壓人o羅

作者: chunsh 時間: 2009-6-6 00:00

總之用軍隊對付自己國家手無寸鐵既平民就點講都唔通。
d學生可能係玩大左，但係佢地唔抵死
最衰就係屈佢地顛覆政府，仲要殺左咁多人都唔認。

如果64中國政府無錯，加拿大都唔會有咁多香港人啦 ...
siumaibb 發表於 2009-6-5 10:21

其實﹐我相信呢度好少人會真係認為中國政府一的都無錯o羅
你地唔好好似小步殊o甘(唔岩意見就係敵人先得架)

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-6 00:17

根據我讀咗趙生本書書（未睇晒）！
原本並唔係太大件事，有少少似我哋今年香港務15萬人悼念六四嘅和平遊行咁！但某人急於取悅"大佬"，就把少部份過激言論（即係好似依㗎長毛個種style)集中講俾"大佬"聽，講成班學生唔尊敬佢老人家，兼且要反中共（which is only small portion)，其實，當時個啲過激言論只不過係吹水居多！

趙生當年有去解釋俾大佬聽，大佬亦接立咗！但有人趁趙生出business trip 就拉隊去數臭啲學生！搞到大佬覺得再俾班學生搞下去，面又無，分分鐘過去辛苦建立嘅體製都會被曲解！所以就同某人講依班死靚仔係有組織，有計劃性嘅反政府行為，別需儘快阻止！

當時有人想盡快邀功，渣渣林將大佬嘅話登晒頭條！問到無問過大佬，就擺人想臺！結果兩邊都唔討好！

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-6 00:25

原本係未登頭條時，班學生大部份都係柴娃娃，發泄完情緒就算，大部份人都已經復課，只有少部份嘅學生條氣仲未順，但都唔係無夠！只要趙生做些動作，開導吓就無咩大問題！

點知某人唔幫拖不特止，仲從中作梗，破壞！結果把啲本來就容易被煽動嘅學生激怒！甚至連警察應該封路嘅，睇唔過眼，覺得班學生咁愛國都要被老屈，而敷衍了事放人！社會大眾亦因依個頭條去撐班學生，搞到班學生看見遊行後竟然無死，就更加無有怕！續而演變成六四靜坐！

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-6 03:36

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-6 04:39 編輯

原本係未登頭條時，班學生大部份都係柴娃娃，發泄完情緒就算，大部份人都已經復課，只有少部份嘅學生條氣仲未順，但都唔係無夠！只要趙生做些動作，開導吓就無咩大問題！

點知某人唔幫拖不特止，仲從中作梗，破壞！ ...
Nam 發表於 2009-6-6 01:25

The true situation is not completely as same as what you said here. If you look further what happend around China and in other provinces, and what people outside of of Beijing City (thousand miles away) did during that period. You will know China was actually in a dangerous situation. If you saw the clip of 李敖, you should be able to get an idea. If you look further to other materials, you should have a better understanding.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-6 09:31

The true situation is not completely as same as what you said here. If you look further what happend around China and in other provinces, and what people outside of of Beijing City (thousand miles away) did during that period. You will know China was actually in a dangerous situation. If you saw the clip of 李敖, you should be able to get an idea. If you look further to other materials, you should have a better understanding.rockypath 發表於 2009-6-6 03:36

Yes, there were many protests around the country, but does that justify the CCP using real bullets and tanks to viciously crack down on and murder the students and public at and near Tiananmen?

I dare you to say yes, you cold blooded monster. No logical justification can be said to defend the sins that CCP committed.

-Lik

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-6 11:57

題外話，剛剛和母親談起六四，原來當年她有帶我們去簽名支持！當年我年紀太細（under 10..)，實在記不起！但我很感激她讓我有份participate.

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-6 14:40

剛讀到一段趙生寫俾大會嘅信！想不到在大方向上和我們港人所想的不媒而合，（just in case you guys attack, not all HK people, but people who mourn for 64)

在信中，他提到事件已過去八年，大會是否該認真去對六四評價呢?不管拖得再久，人們也不會淡忘六四！對於六四重新評價問題，遲早要解決的！早解決比晚解決好，主動解決比被動好，在形勢穩定解決比在出現某種麻煩時解決好！

那次學潮不管存在什麼偏激，錯誤和可指責之處，但把他定性為"反革命暴亂"是沒有根據的！既然不是反革命暴亂，就不應該采取武裝鎮壓的手段去解決。

p.s. too much word and I cannot type the whole section for you guys. Please refer back to the book. Too bad that this letter cannot reach most people and people who was intended recipient just ignore his letter.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-6 15:10

Yes, there were many protests around the country, but does that justify the CCP using real bullets and tanks to viciously crack down on and murder the students and public at and near Tiananmen?

I da ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 10:31

First, I do not try to defence CCP and what it had been done in 6.4.

Many people had questioned why CCP couldn't handle 6.4. in a better way which they believe CPP should (or must) have done.

Can I ask a question? If CCP believed the country was in a crisis of collapsing, do you think it would use any force that is necessary to restore the order and deal with the consequence later? Do you think other countries will do differently if they are under the same situation?

There is no need to look further. Just look at our neighbour – USA. It had not only done the same thing (it was not even a movement to overthrow the government), but it invaded other countries and overthrew the governments of other countries as well for the great and mighty reason – to protect the American people, the Freedom, and the Democracy which many people had admired and praised.

This is not a defence statement. It is just a question to share.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-6 16:06

Can I ask a question? If CCP believed the country was in a crisis of collapsing, do you think it would use any force that is necessary to restore the order and deal with the consequence later? Do you think other countries will do differently if they are under the same situation?

That is very likely what Elder Deng had in mind, and hence the iron fisted bloody approach to massacre the students. Would other countries do the same? Some might, but many more will not. Martial law will likely be imposed. Batons, water canons, rubber bullets will be the weapons of choice of the anti-riot police. But what did the CCP use? Live ammunition and tanks. Even in the recent riots in France and Thailand over the last several years, did you see the same mass murder taking place?

There is no need to look further. Just look at our neighbour – USA. It had not only done the same thing (it was not even a movement to overthrow the government), but it invaded other countries and overthrew the governments of other countries as well for the great and mighty reason – to protect the American people, the Freedom, and the Democracy which many people had admired and praised.rockypath 發表於 2009-6-6 15:10

I like it when people compare the US to China, thinking that it can act as some sort of justification for the CCP's sins. Assuming that the US' Iraq campaign is a sin, does it justify CCP's crimes as well? More importantly, there is no end to lobby groups and harsh criticisms on the Bush administration for the wars. The US does not silence such opposition in any way. Does the same happen in China? Can 6.4 be mentioned? What of the Tiananmen mothers' requests? Why are there house arrests for sensitive figures?

The most basic and fundamental human rights are sorely lacking in China. No logical argument/discussion can be made against something as basic and simple as that.

-Lik

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-6 17:12

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-6 18:20 編輯

That is very likely what Elder Deng had in mind, and hence the iron fisted bloody approach to massacre the students. Would other countries do the same? Some might, but many more will not. Martial law ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 17:06

First, the reason I share with you the question is try to help you to have a much rounded view of 6.4 and look at it from a greater perspective.

Second, you had said much about CCP should have not done this or that. Can I ask if you were Elder Deng, what would you do differently and why would you believe you can resolve the crisis effectively (we are talking about the crisis of the collapse of a nation).

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-6 20:01

If I were Elder Deng, I would sack Li Peng and talk to the students with an open mind. The students have proven their qualities to be a peaceful bunch, as did the majority of the public. They had an agenda with requests and demands, and their pledges are legitimate ones. 趙紫陽 might have had a chance to sooth the students through negotiation had he had Elder Deng's support. Even in the final stages of the conflict, I would never have authorized the use of real ammunition and tanks on the students.

A couple of things worked against Elder Deng. As much of a genius and a revolutionary as he was, he was turning old and stubborn. He had been in power for too long, and everyone knows absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Chinese mindset of an ever-ruling emperor corrupted his thinking as well and fueled his cravings to cling onto power. Last but not least, the inherently flawed system of how the CCP worked instilled fear of losing power into every high ranking leader at the time -- in the old old CCP, once you have forfeited power, you run a high risk of getting "challenged", denounced, humiliated, and possibly death.

The country of China will not fall. With a 5000 year history on our backs, I think history has proven me correct. Governments may come and go, but so what? Chinese need to get used to the idea that the Party is not the country. The governing party is only there to govern with the interests of the country, not their own party agenda, in mind. Their primary job is to steer the country in the right direction, not to remain in power forever. As an extreme example that failed miserably, you need to look no further than North Korea. Kim Jong Il's government exists only to keep himself (and his successor) in power. His government is NOT interested in the doing what is best for his country.

In any case, the Tiananmen students were not out to topple the government in the first place. They wanted change and political reform, but they didn't ask for the government to topple.

-Lik

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-6 20:03

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2009-6-6 21:10 編輯

If I were Elder Deng, I would sack Li Peng and talk to the students with an open mind. The students have proven their qualities to be a peaceful bunch, as did the majority of the public. They had an a ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 21:01

You moron, how do you even know what those students were thinking 20 years ago? Please do not make things up.

You don't even have a clue of how to develop a country. Perhaps you should go to slumdog millionaire India and see how corrupted they are.

The economic development in China for the past 30 years have made China more ready for political reforms in the future. Right now the per capita GDP and average education level of mainland Chinese are still lower than that of Taiwanese when they first had their democratic elections. But the time will come.
Again, economic reforms should come before political reforms, just like in Japan/South Korea/Taiwan, which all have way higher per capita GDP than slumdog millionaire India.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-6 20:18

對一隻只會擦鞋嘅可憐蟲奴才來講，領導人嘅天威當然係不可犯，而我所講嘅其他說話亦為於一個你無法明白嘅層次。

算啦，唔講喇～反正比你高級同有見識果個都走咗咯。

-力

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-6 20:27

And one more thing. Contrary to what you have repeated shown in various threads and posts, I would never underestimate India and its people. Their country is rich with history, and their citizens are as resourceful and creative as Chinese. And may I remind you, China is NOT the only rapidly developing country with a robust economy. India is not that much further behind.

-Lik

作者: salad_bread 時間: 2009-6-6 20:54

O嗮嘴。。。叫你讀多D書架啦。。。
點解印度會係咁？問下英國佬啦

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-6 22:28

Although reading the book itself keep me thinking, but actually listening to the actual audiotape voice shock me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY69HdsM8tM&feature=fvw

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-6 23:52

If I were Elder Deng, I would sack Li Peng and talk to the students with an open mind. The students have proven their qualities to be a peaceful bunch, as did the majority of the public. They had an a ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 21:01

I have to say it sincerely after reading your post (nothing personal) – “you should find out more about 6.4 from different sources. Not just things happened in Beijing and at Tiananmen Square, but what happened outside of it. The knowledge of the political, social and economic environment of that time will help you to have a better view of 6.4.”

It is too much to explain the situation and I have to leave to do some more research on your own. I can provide some keywords for you.

• The possibility of 政變;
• 黨內和軍隊內部的分歧被公開化（趙紫陽has much responsibility for this）並引起社會不安和形勢劇烈惡化. This cost CCP the opportunity to continue communicating with students since the situation worsen rapidly (you might not like to hear this.);
• People and students began to walk out from factories and schools and got on to streets across the country;
• Students and people began to flood into Beijing from all around the country;
• Local governments began to became dysfunctional;
• Ramous began to spread across the nations;
• Untrue foreign news reports began to flood the western media network;
• The possibility of 國家分裂
• … and much more… (you can continue the list after you find out more about it)

Just another question to you – if China was 分裂to different smaller states because of 6.4, what will China become today and what kind of life will the mainland Chinese people be in?

Elder Deng had said – “穩定壓倒一切”. Do you understand why he said so and what he mean and under what situation he said that?

作者: daimo 時間: 2009-6-7 00:15

39# rockypath

"Just another question to you – if China was 分裂to different smaller states because of 6.4, what will China become today and what kind of life will the mainland Chinese people be in?"

Google "Fall of USSR"

NOt exactly the same, but not too far away from it either ...

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-7 00:22

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2009-6-7 01:27 編輯

And one more thing. Contrary to what you have repeated shown in various threads and posts, I would never underestimate India and its people. Their country is rich with history, and their citizens are ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 21:27

China's per capita GDP(nominal) is at least three times larger than that of India.
why would a democratic country lag so far behind?

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-7 00:59

I have to say it sincerely after reading your post (nothing personal) – “you should find out more about 6.4 from different sources. Not just things happened in Beijing and at Tiananmen Square, but ...
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-7 00:52

這也是我無奈的！
我明白當年為何要stop，並不代表用我感情上要接受！
沒有當初的震壓，就沒有現在的百年驚奧！無奈地這是每個大國必經的路！

我衷心感激／尊重鄧老對經濟發展的催促和執著，沒有那些元老，祖國怎能從赤字那麼高，演變成現今大國！但現在人民富起來了，國家富起來了，是否該站出來給人民一個交代，是否讓人民富起來?

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-7 01:03

正如趙老所說，再拖多久，人們還是會記得！
當然我不會天真到去相信他們會給我們事實的全部！

歷史永遠都是勝利的一方寫的，這個道理古今中外從沒改變！
我個人求的，只是最起碼的反思和面對！
如果連自家事也不追求，不面對，我們憑甚麼去談甚麼要求日本政府去承認南京屠殺?

作者: Nam 時間: 2009-6-7 01:07

當然這也是小妹的一些愚見，不喜勿插！
我只希望各位能夠理性地討論，share 大家的research 成果，好讓對歷史不太清楚的人，有個大概！

而不是為坳而坳，為感性而作出貿論／人身攻擊！
如果為坳而坳，為了prove 自己比別人優越，我想維園比例適合！又或者有興趣者，大可係stanley park 搞翻個城市論壇！

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-7 08:45

其實好簡單，你所有嘅論點，聚即至最後嘅呢一句：

Elder Deng had said – “穩定壓倒一切”. Do you understand why he said so and what he mean and under what situation he said that?rockypath 發表於 2009-6-6 23:52

就反映晒你同我嘅分別：你堂而皇之咁話 "國家穩定" 比其他一切 -- 包括人命同無辜嘅犧牲 -- 都來得重要，而小弟則覺得人命凌駕於所謂嘅 "國家穩定"。你可以話我唔識大體，但我會話我寧願唔識大體都好過你冷血無人性！

再者，從中共建黨六十年重複不段嘅事實我地可以見到，老鄧同其他領導人口中所講嘅 "國家穩定壓倒一切" 其實只係為咗保住佢地自己能夠繼續掌權嘅堂皇藉口。唔好唔記得，自毛賊開始，共產黨領導層裡面任何人一旦失勢嘅話，下場一般都係極為悲慘。老鄧深受呢個信念嘅荼毒，所以當然係會不擇手段咁去保住自己嘅權來保住自己。

再講，中國會分裂？漢人不瀏都信奉大一統主意，而內蒙古嘅人口亦早已被漢化，變成漢人遠遠多過蒙古人。新疆果邊無錯係有啲東突厥組織成日搞搞震，但新疆嘅漢族人口比例亦非常高（好似接近一半？），要分裂成功絕對唔係一件容易嘅事。極其量會走人嘅多數只係小西藏，而並非大西藏區。從一個經濟角度來睇，西藏每年都用中央好多錢，係一個經濟負擔而並非收入來源。小弟唔贊成藏獨，只係支持西藏藏人自決。如果人地藏人自己係想離開中共嘅話，你咪由得佢走囉？相反嘅，如果藏人想留，咁自然係無任歡迎。

講來講去，以國家穩定來做血腥鎮壓同屠殺學生嘅借口都係講唔通。最少，咁樣嘅藉口唔會被有血性嘅人認同。

-力

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-7 09:42

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-7 10:57 編輯

其實好簡單，你所有嘅論點，聚即至最後嘅呢一句：

就反映晒你同我嘅分別：你堂而皇之咁話 "國家穩定" 比其他一切 -- 包括人命同無辜嘅犧牲 -- 都來得重要，而小弟則覺得人命凌駕於所謂嘅 "國家穩定"。你可以話我唔 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-7 09:45

You have been criticizing other people are cold hearted, narrow minded and stubborn. These all applied to you. I have to tell you – “don’t try to defend yourself just for the mean of defending yourself; It just makes yourself look foolish.”

Do you really believe”穩定壓倒一切” just for the sake of economy?????? If that is you truly believe in, I feel pity for you. You do not worth my time to discuss this topic with you.

”穩定壓倒一切” is to stop China from breaking down to different states and prevent the possibility of civil war and the invasion of other countries (more lives to be lost and more blood to be shedded). It guarantees the continue development of economic and political reform. It gives mainland Chinese a stable, peaceful and prosperous life and a hope of a brighter future both economically and politically.

If China breaks down, there will be a big set back both economically and politically. Will be there any Democracy? You tell me.

So you think Elder Deng only know how to drive the economic reform? He is, in fact, the driving force for the political reform as well. Without him, we won’t see the reform and improvement in China political system and structure at all, and as well as the improvement in human right.

“中國會分裂？” – I can only tell you to read some about the Chinese history. Can you tell me how many times in Chinese history China had broken down to smaller states and was invaded by other countries?

Did anyone expect USSR collapsed so rapidly (I felt it just happened overnight) when it was one of the only two supper powers in the world?

Is who truly for a better tomorrow for China and Chinese people? Is it you or Elder Deng? You tell me.

I really feel pity for you. You know too little and keep arguing just for the sake of arguing. It just makes me loose the respect to you.

無知並不是罪﹐ 真正的罪是以無知為榮。

作者: chunsh 時間: 2009-6-7 10:13

其實好簡單，你所有嘅論點，聚即至最後嘅呢一句：

就反映晒你同我嘅分別：你堂而皇之咁話 "國家穩定" 比其他一切 -- 包括人命同無辜嘅犧牲 -- 都來得重要，而小弟則覺得人命凌駕於所謂嘅 "國家穩定"。你可以話我唔 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-7 09:45

before applying democracy to a group of people, that group of people MUST (yes, must) have received the western education for years. At least the adults in that group of people already have the western democracy values in their mind. Otherwise, democracy will NOT work! since they dont know how democracy work and what would be the consequence that they, the citizen, misused their democratic power. 做事要有先後

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-7 10:55

I watched the Movie Dr. Sun Yat Sen(Made in China with the assistance from PLA) many times, Sun Yat Sen advocated an open, democratic and wealthy New China. We have had
our Chinese general election in early 20's.
Unfortunately both the KMT and CCP denied our constitutional right until 80's in Taiwan.
Democratic is a long journey, but the governing political party has no right to impose their ideology upon us. No political system is perfect, the CCP gov't did make a economic miracle
by defying all the communism economic theories. What did we learn from the story?
Communism does not work, at least for our time. To me, the Beijing Government is a bundle of extreme Capitalists operates under the name of Chinese Communist Party.
Canadian, on the contrarary is a genuine Socialist country.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-7 11:21

If you think I am merely writing to defend myself for the sake of defending myself, you're free to think that. But I'd tell you that is not my goal.

You also need to reread my previous post b/c I said the CCP leaders are using "stability" as their excuse to ensure their own and the CCP's continual stay in power. In nowhere did I say they were doing this for the economy. Nice attempt in trying to frame me for something I didn't say though. Haha~

As I wrote in the previous post, it is highly unlikely that China will collapse in the same way as USSR did. The ethnic make up of USSR is vastly different since people in those regions have a strong sense of territoriality and individual ethnicity. Except for Tibet, China no longer has that because most other regions have been too heavily Han-ized. Did you even read my post, man?!

It is true that Elder Deng was the prime initiator of both economic and political reforms. I think it was him who introduced the 2-term/10 years thing for party leaders, and for that he must be applauded. But at the same time, the pace of his political reforms were too slow. And as I was saying in the previous post, even though he introduced the 2-term rule into the party, he was too corrupted by the absolute power he enjoyed while he was in the leader seat to relinquish that very same power. (Again, did you even bother reading or understanding my previous post?)

Except for the most fundamental right to live, human rights have not improved much at all in China. In fact, on many fronts there have actually been huge setbacks. Freedom of speech and open press is non-existent. Freedom to assemble is non-existent. Religious freedom is heavily controlled (by an atheist party, I might add). Property protection is non-existent precisely when you need it most. If Chinese are satisfied to enjoy only the same living rights as herds of farm animals, then by all means, human rights in China is totally acceptable.

-Lik

作者: rainbow-davie 時間: 2009-6-7 11:46

算把啦, 中國幾千年封建思想已經深入某D人血液裡.
中國歷史上, 小人奸臣多不勝數, 今於助紂為虐的如繁星不可數, 名君名臣有幾許? 有多少正直有膽有識之士?

我不期望能名留青史, 但也不甘為愚昧之輩在權力前埋沒良心, 指鹿為馬, 做其犬奴.

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-7 11:50

算把啦, 中國幾千年封建思想已經深入某D人血液裡.
中國歷史上, 小人奸臣多不勝數, 今於助紂為虐的如繁星不可數, 名君名臣有幾許? 有多少正直有膽有識之士?

我不期望能名留青史, 但也不甘為愚昧之輩在權力前埋沒良 ...
rainbow-davie 發表於 2009-6-7 11:46

Very well said

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-7 12:16

算把啦, 中國幾千年封建思想已經深入某D人血液裡.
中國歷史上, 小人奸臣多不勝數, 今於助紂為虐的如繁星不可數, 名君名臣有幾許? 有多少正直有膽有識之士?

我不期望能名留青史, 但也不甘為愚昧之輩在權力前埋沒良 ...
rainbow-davie 發表於 2009-6-7 12:46

I would be interested in knowing what you mean when you said:

• 愚昧之輩 – why do you think we are愚昧之輩?
• 在權力前埋沒良心 – what had we done or said?
• 指鹿為馬 – what had we done or said?
• 做其犬奴 – what had we done?

We made a statement then we explained what it mean and provided evidences to support our points. So what are your points and how would you backup your statements?

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-7 12:21

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-7 13:24 編輯

We have had our Chinese general election in early 20's.

somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-7 11:55

You call that a general election and that is the general election you asked for? Sorry, please look up the history book and learn more about it.

By the way, do you know when is the time women in Canada got the right to vote?

作者: chunsh 時間: 2009-6-7 13:08

You call that a general election and that is the general election you asked for? Sorry, please look up the history book and learn more about it.

By the way, do you know when is the time women in Ca ...
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-7 13:21

yes, and that so-called "general election" lead to the result that more people prefer communism instead of so-called democracy.
從來政權交替(外族入侵除外)﹐都係當時政府大失民心以至民怨沸騰﹐才會有別的political
party (or army) 去取代當時的當權者
and some people called that democracy success???
come on~~~

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-7 13:24

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-7 13:27 編輯

The Chiang's regime was serious corrupted, and  their cowardly compromised with Imperial Japanese was unacceptable.
China would be much better if Dr. Sun lived long enough to carry out his plan for modern China. He left the KMT to Chiang which ended up as a great dictator, it is pitiful. The movie was made in China which represents CCP 's POV,(Sun's Pro Communism thought),  democracy is not perfect, but is more reasonable than dictatorship.
After all, Sun is still the greatest  political leader of modern China, he is almost impeccable,  don't try to tell me that Mao or Deng  is better than Sun; unfortunately his son was a wimp.

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-7 13:53

Either right or wrong, it is people's  right to choose their government.
We may make a wrong decision  choosing  the wrong leaders, but we also
have the right to  un-elect them, that is democracy, in which I'm believed.

作者: chunsh 時間: 2009-6-7 15:27

Either right or wrong, it is people's  right to choose their government.
We may make a wrong decision  choosing  the wrong leaders, but we also
have the right to  un-elect them, that is democracy, in  ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-7 14:53

I can tell u, u are absolutely wrong
yes it is, look at some third world countries in africa. those countries was trying to apply democracy. however, the normal people are not ready yet. They don't know how to choose the right one and they elected a dictator which is more dictative than their former government(or same)

and u know, the result of choosing the wrong government took how many lives because of the dictative polices that the so-called elected governemnt has applied on the citizen, the next few revolutions or civil wars

do u want to buy a bread with millions of dollars?

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-7 17:06

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-7 17:16 編輯

CCP simply would not want to give up even a small portion of power to other political party.
China is different from the African country, we have our democratic government back in 1911.
We are now living in Canada now,  why we have to settle in a foreign country if our mother
country is so great?  I enjoy freedom, equality and democratic system that I can express my thought openly and freely. Anyone of you willing to give up just everything here to return and Build a better Socialist Country?
I came here 32 years with no money, no high education and no English, I manage to establish myself in Caucasian society and recognized by mainstream profession and trades.
Canada is a young country but high moral standard, you can ask average Canadian to make a choice, whether they prefer to have a  better living or freedom, the answer will be overwhelming.  In democratic country, we may make mistake  and choose the wrong gov't which we do quite often, but we can get rid of them. While the CCP is like a diaper, it is full of Shxx and always on your back.
The CCP already wasted generations of times, and I do not think they are doing a good job in general,  who created all the mega corruptions? we can just blame it on the foreign powers? you can choose to trust them, not me.
Why do we need to fear a future dictative government  when there is one existing for 60 years, it can't get any worse. Don't not bluff with civil war, without it, there wouldn't be  KMT and CCP regime, we would still be Qinks

作者: rainbow-davie 時間: 2009-6-7 17:11

I would be interested in knowing what you mean when you said:

• 愚昧之輩 – why do you think we are愚昧之輩?
• 在權力前埋沒良心 – what had we done or said?
• 指鹿為馬 – what had we done or sa ...
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-7 13:16

你又唔洗咁快對號入座, 大把人會同你一齊咬文嚼字同我拗. 你放心, 你都有千千萬萬同道中人. 但吾道亦不孤.
我講既野, 你明就明, 詐唔明又得, 唔明又可以, 隨你啦, 對號入座更適隨尊便. 你自我感覺良好就得啦.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-7 17:20

Anyone of you willing to give up just everything here to return and Build a better Socialist Country?
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-7 18:06

You have made it very clear that you hate CCP, but you let your hatred blind your eyes, your ears, your mind, and probably your heart as well.

I do not really care which party is in power, but I sincerely care which party will provide a stable, peaceful and prosperous life to Chinese people and protect them from the invasion of other foreign countries, as well continuingly giving more freedom and democracy to its people.

Hey, you have not answered my question yet – “when was the time woman in Canada got the right to vote.” It is relating to your question and the points I want to make.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-7 17:21

你又唔洗咁快對號入座, 大把人會同你一齊咬文嚼字同我拗. 你放心, 你都有千千萬萬同道中人. 但吾道亦不孤.
我講既野, 你明就明, 詐唔明又得, 唔明又可以, 隨你啦, 對號入座更適隨尊便. 你自我感覺良好就得啦. ...
rainbow-davie 發表於 2009-6-7 18:11

I think you just told me that I can basically ignore what you said.

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-7 17:42

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-7 17:47 編輯

Canadian women became eligible to vote in 1916,
Chinese Canadian did not get to vote until after WW2
The moral of the story is:
You will not get anything without putting up a fight,
there is something in life worth to die for.
If I live in the age of Dr. Sun , I'd die for revolution,
If I live in Anti-Japanese war, I would join the Red Army, like what My uncle did.
But now, I chose to be an absentee.
My uncle joined the Red Army(before PLA) to protect his motherland, he believed that
the New Government would foster a better country.
My father's 3 younger siblings died starving in early 50's, while Mao sent all the supplies to support North Korea.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-7 17:45

Canadian women became eligible to vote in 1916,
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-7 18:42

It is right, but not quite right. Please keep looking up the answer.

作者: rainbow-davie 時間: 2009-6-7 17:47

I think you just told me that I can basically ignore what you said.
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-7 18:21

係呀, 如果你睇完我寫既野, 撫(良)心自問, 覺得好安心既, 咪當我唱歌囉.
如果你睇完好能嬲, 咁咪諗下我踩到你邊條尾囉. 係咁簡單.

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-7 18:01

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-7 18:04 編輯

63# rockypath

In 1918, Canadian women obtained the right to run for a seat in the House of Commons. 50 years after the male. Certain thing in life is worth to fight for.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-7 18:06

63# rockypath

In 1918, Canadian women obtained the right to run for a seat in the House of Commons. 50 years after the male. Certain thing in life is worth to fight for.
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-7 19:01

I would make the question to be more specific -- "when was the time Canadian woman won the full rights for general election".

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-7 21:18

政治既話題o係LYK幾時都係咁受歡迎既~
改革歷程之中, 總會有d 人犧牲. 希望有朝一日改革完成之時, 能夠比番一個名份d 犧牲者啦~

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-8 01:43

I would make the question to be more specific -- "when was the time Canadian woman won the full rights for general election".
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-7 19:06

Well, I think I have to answer the question myself.

Canadian women in Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan got the vote in 1916. But, Canadian women did not get the full rights for general election until 1960. It took almost 50 year since the first province grant the voting right to woman!!! Not to mention how long for Canadian women to fight for even the first provincial voting right (more than 100 years?).

So many people have been bombarding how evil Chinese CCP and its government are, but themselves know very little about the development history of Democracy and human right!!! Democracy just won’t happen overnight and it is a progress of continuing development and improvement.

It should be my turn to be speechless.

作者: chobit 時間: 2009-6-8 05:13

I am hardly somone who is into polictical topics.., as I simply don't have the time and energy to do so. I barely know enough about 6.4, but I am glad to be able to learn so much through LYK recently. I feel like replying many of the posts, but I doubt I would able to keep up with the replies..! Therefore, I just keep quiet and continue my reading instead. However, I am glad to find many of the replies do share my same point of view.

While I don't agree with the method of killing for their own gains.., however we learn that killing does seem to be a necessary part of the process to make history. I am not talking about the right/wrong here, but just want to stated the fact here. I'll go back to some posts are replies... but please forgive me for now going to be able to reply them all back... later..

Well, I think I have to answer the question myself.

Canadian women in Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan got the vote in 1916. But, Canadian women did not get the full rights for general election ...
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-8 01:43

作者: chobit 時間: 2009-6-8 05:17

For those who sort of agaist Elder Deng's wrong doing, I do believe this a some questions worth answering..! What real options are avaiable at the time which can yield us a better China?

I have to say it sincerely after reading your post (nothing personal) – “you should find out more about 6.4 from different sources. Not just things happened in Beijing and at Tiananmen Square, but ...
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-6 23:52

作者: chobit 時間: 2009-6-8 05:33

But at the end, I think we stay here not because solely because canada is a democracy country, but more because it is a country relatveily safe crimes activties, high quality education, stable economic, lower risk of civil war, chance of being invaded by other country, higher quality of heath care system, and good disease controls..!

I doubt China will be a place we would like to live in without all the good features I mention soley base having a democracy problem.

Democracy is also full of craps and corruptions, I think China just has to go slow and take in what's good in Democracy, and keep what's already good and look forward to the best for it's people and the country.

I am sure it will take many more decades for China to become a country where us lucky Chinese-Candians think it's an ideal place to live our lives

總之用軍隊對付自己國家手無寸鐵既平民就點講都唔通。
d學生可能係玩大左，但係佢地唔抵死
最衰就係屈佢地顛覆政府，仲要殺左咁多人都唔認。

如果64中國政府無錯，加拿大都唔會有咁多香港人啦 ...
siumaibb 發表於 2009-6-5 09:21

作者: chobit 時間: 2009-6-8 05:46

Thanks FYI.  I agree with many of your opinions....!  Like you suggest the process for change can take long, and can't be rush...!  The key is as long as China is moving toward to become a better China, there are very little else we can ask for other than actually doing more real works to help China growth in person.

What can we do to help China.  Help those who are in needs, help the blinds, build schools, provide funding to help those who want to study to become teachers or educators, etc..!  I have friend who go back to China with his yearly vacation time to do short term mission in poor area in China to help the blinds or disable kids.

BTW, before we continues to compare the rich Countries like Canada/US to China.  Do you know there are still tons of Villages in China where people have to walk 5-6 hours daily up/down hills just to pick up their water supplies?

Well, I think I have to answer the question myself.

Canadian women in Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan got the vote in 1916. But, Canadian women did not get the full rights for general election ...
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-8 01:43

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-8 08:38

Chobit,

本來我今朝好唔得閒，但係見到你個 post 就真係火都來埋。因為你身為人父，所以我就問你呢個問題：假如有個死靚仔今日爆咗入你屋企，用槍虐殺咗你個小朋友，然後再用架車輾過佢條屍。你自己雖然無親身睇見件凶案嘅發生，但你身邊嘅親朋戚友就親眼見到，而且亦有埋 video 同相片，但廿年來條友佢一直到逍遙法外，而且仲做埋國際公司總裁。佢嘅員工有啲話廿年前嘅凶案無發生，有啲人話如果唔係廿年前條友隊 lum 咗你個仔嘅話，佢都唔會發奮向上爬，取得今日嘅成就。而每年你想去拜你個仔嘅時候，佢公司嘅人都會阻止你咁做，唔俾你出街。我問你，你仲會唔會講你以上講過嘅說話？！

我唔係要咀咒你個小朋友；我只係想指出，以上發生嘅就係每一個天安門母親二十年來每一日都不停面對嘅殘酷事實！呢個就係中共政府！

-力

作者: rainbow-davie 時間: 2009-6-8 09:29

阿Lik 算吧啦.

我相信一個人既成就同佢地既人生觀有直接關係. 你點講, 另一派一定有佢地既觀點, 係外人改唔到, 或者佢地覺得無須改變. 所以, 直至佢地要支持既對象不存在或改變, 佢地都會係咁.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-8 10:18

Chobit,

我諗我剛才個 post 嘅語氣因為火燒心而用得太重，首先響呢度同你 say 個 sorry。之不過語氣雖然差，但過中嘅比喻卻係千真萬確。

希望你能夠對件事再思考一吓。

-力

作者: chunsh 時間: 2009-6-8 11:29

Chobit,

本來我今朝好唔得閒，但係見到你個 post 就真係火都來埋。因為你身為人父，所以我就問你呢個問題：假如有個死靚仔今日爆咗入你屋企，用槍虐殺咗你個小朋友，然後再用架車輾過佢條屍。你自己雖然無親身睇見 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-8 09:38

nobody here agree the chinese government use tanks and guns to kill the citizen is right. Chobit was just stating the fact that when every change of the political situation, lossing massive lives would happen 請你不要選擇性地ignore我們說話的意思

作者: 快樂牛郎 時間: 2009-6-8 16:10

It always remind me a good saying

One life (or several lives) is a tragedy.
A million lives is a statistics.

作者: chobit 時間: 2009-6-8 19:09

It's sad that I can speak verbally far better than my writing skills...!  So, bare with me..!

First if my son is doing something he believe to be right, but yet in an incorrect timing, and cause his life, of course I will be very sad...!  But I can't ignore the fact that what my son involves could have caused many other deaths.  Sometimes, we like to draw a line between black and white with our own will, and would try to obtain our goals no matter how much damage it may caused...!  That speak for both the Chinese Governments, but also the students as well...!

Like someone else said it here, I don't think what the chinese government did to the students were right, but other also want to here from you Lik what are some of possible resolutions you can think of which you think can bring peace to both the Chinese Government and the students without affecting the stability of China at the time, and still allow China to be what it is right now?  Obviously.. what's done is done, so we can only go by a well educated guess..!

Speaking of countries like the US or Canada..!  Didn't they use us the Chinese to build rail-roads... what about the local indians... were they being treated pretty unfair ages ago...!  And it takes many years to get these countries to become such pretty good countries to live in!  They may had apolagize to their wrong doing, but that was after many years when the countries became well stable and when things are in their full controls.

Chobit,

本來我今朝好唔得閒，但係見到你個 post 就真係火都來埋。因為你身為人父，所以我就問你呢個問題：假如有個死靚仔今日爆咗入你屋企，用槍虐殺咗你個小朋友，然後再用架車輾過佢條屍。你自己雖然無親身睇見 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-8 08:38

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-8 19:20

Chobit,

I think I have written many times, both in this thread and in others, of what the CCP government could have done instead of firing live ammunition and rolling out tanks, so I am not going to repeat myself again. Suffice to say that had Elder Deng been willing to accept some concessions and suggestions from both the students and the milder factions within the Party, I am certain something would be worked out. But his own combination of fear, power-lust, and stubbornness caused him to make the totally incorrect decision that has forever tarnished his reputation.

-Lik

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-8 23:55

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-9 01:02 編輯

Chobit,

I think I have written many times, both in this thread and in others, of what the CCP government could have done instead of firing live ammunition and rolling out tanks, so I am not going to ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-8 20:20

It was not us to ignore what you said, but it was you to ignore the facts we put in front of you.

When to resolve a social emergency or national crisis, there is no “ZERO SOCIAL COST” solution, but only “MINIMUM SOCIAL COST” solution.

The flood of Yangzte River and Yellow River has been an unsolvable problem in the thousands years of Chinese history. When the river was in the dangerous stage of breaking the dyke at any moment, do you still believe you would have the time to discuss about putting the dyke higher and making it stronger? In order to protect the more populated regions, some less populated areas had to be designated as “flood zone” to release the water. That means the dyke of that areas would be purposely blow down and the areas were deliberately flooded. Land would be filled, houses would be washed away, and lives could possibly lose as well.

How would you do differently in a situation like this, and would you believe you can do it in a way that would achieve “ZERO SOCIAL COST”?

Do you really believe you could resolve the 6.4 crisis (a possible collapse of a nation) just by communicating with students under the situations we put in front of you?

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-9 00:37

But at the end, I think we stay here not because solely because canada is a democracy country, but more because it is a country relatveily safe crimes activties, high quality education, stable econom ...
chobit 發表於 2009-6-8 06:33

For example, Lik will not go to democratic India where the slumdog millionaires live without stable supply of water or electricity.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-9 00:51

For example, Lik will not go to democratic India where the slumdog millionaires live without stable supply of water or electricity.
peter236 發表於 2009-6-9 16:37

好地地仲乜去印度? 你幾時出發去剛果平息當地既內戰?

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-9 02:58

好地地仲乜去印度? 你幾時出發去剛果平息當地既內戰?
mcjohnjohn 發表於 2009-6-9 01:51

Because India is democratic and he likes that.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-9 04:04

Because India is democratic and he likes that.
peter236 發表於 2009-6-9 18:58

democratic? 咁佢留o係加拿大就得啦! 仲乜要去到咁遠woh, 為左食咖哩咩.

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-9 04:40

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-9 05:07 編輯

Talking about the "possible collapse of a nation"
did any of the young and intelligent LYK know that Mao
advocated  "The Hunan Republic" and breakaway from Republic Of China
in early 20?
Have anyone of you read the  10 volumes "Complete Works Of Mao" , published
in China 1960, Mao had his unique idea of  a Confederation state composed of
20+ independent states, similar to the EC now and how good it would be.  What
a great vision! I used to have the volumes back in HK.
Don't slash me for making it up, the book was popular in early 70's and Louis Cha(the founder of Ming Po) wrote a lot of articles to praise it.
Sigh, dozens of Hong Kong leaders chose not to talk about 6.4(not against)in light of their personal well being, it is pitiful.
Why they come up with the phobia that China will break-up, collapse, endangered, unstable  bankrupted when people in China has freedom and democracy?
The only thing for sure is that the CCP will lost their grip on the total control. That is the fear of the people in power, not necessary the general public. Chinese culture and history survive  5000 years without Communism,  even resistance against  Japanese invasion. The theories of Karl Marx is proven all wrong. CCP finally  learned an expensive lesson at our cost, and become a true  Capitalism economy maintaining the socialist title. Just tell me when did Communism really work in modern human history?
What did we learn? The economic miracle in China is the result of ditching Communism  and turning to Capitalism; if this is proven success, why not  giving democracy  a try? if the leaders want to leave a legacy in Chinese history, but not just for their family and colleagues's wealth and power.

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-9 10:00

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2009-6-9 11:02 編輯

democratic? 咁佢留o係加拿大就得啦! 仲乜要去到咁遠woh, 為左食咖哩咩.
mcjohnjohn 發表於 2009-6-9 05:04

The point here is that countries, like democratic India, where democracy was implemented before economic reforms, will remain relatively poor. Therefore, Lik will not go there or even talk about it.
Japan/South Korea/Taiwan, all experienced rapid economic growth before they got any type of democracy. All of those places have way higher per capita GDP than India. Even mainland China's per capita GDP is three times that of India.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-9 10:26

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-9 11:40 編輯

Talking about the "possible collapse of a nation"
did any of the young and intelligent LYK know that Mao
advocated "The Hunan Republic" and breakaway from Republic Of China
in early 20?
Have anyone ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-9 05:40

I would suggest you to read up more but not just try to fulfill you hatred to CCP.

1) Do you know China is the only historical great nation (empire) that was able to recover from its collapse and be reunited again (including its land) in the world history? None of other empires in the world was able to do the same. Instead, they disappear because none of them was able to recover after they were broken down to smaller states. Please look up some about the world history.

2) When ever there was a political regime change in China history, there will be civil wars and massive lost of life. Do you know that?

3) I don’t care whether it is CCP in power, I care about the life of Chinese people. Why would you suggest to overthrow CCP when China is prospering and Chinese people is having a better life? You are truely cold-hearted.

作者: chobit 時間: 2009-6-9 11:43

2nd that. Improving the life quality even for just the basic needs is far more important at the moment. What good is it, if people don't even have breads, or other basic medical supplies. What good is democracy people live there actually suffer more..!

I would suggest you to read up more but not just try to fulfill you hatred to CCP.

1) Do you know China is the only historical great nation (empire) that was able to recover from its collapse and b ...
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-9 10:26

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-9 12:30

2nd that. Improving the life quality even for just the basic needs is far more important at the moment. What good is it, if people don't even have breads, or other basic medical supplies. What good is democracy people live there actually suffer more..!
chobit 發表於 2009-6-9 11:43

Citizen's basic needs are more important at the moment, eh?

Then why do we have the aerospace program, the Olympic extravagance, the local government extravagance, the 3 Gorges dam construction, the Shanghai (Pudong) magnetic levitation high speed train, etc.? Among these gigantic projects, only the 3 Gorges damn construction is more relevant to the citizens' basic needs. And even then, critics have long argued that thousands of smaller scale waterworks projects would not only be easier and cheaper to do, but also more beneficial to a larger number of people while simultaneously being less disruptive.

Another thing you have forgotten is how democracy can hold officials accountable to the citizens, and this in turn ensures fairness and justice is served.

Sigh... I'm just wasting my time yapping away to the deaf...

-Lik

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-9 15:08

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2009-6-9 16:17 編輯

Citizen's basic needs are more important at the moment, eh?

Then why do we have the aerospace program, the Olympic extravagance, the local government extravagance, the 3 Gorges dam construction, the ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-9 13:30

You moron, the aerospace program has economic and scientific applications.
For example, China is capable of launching satellites for other countries, thereby making a lot of money.
China is setting up its own GPS system, therefore in the future, there is no need to rely on the US satellites.
Of course, weather satellites are used in forecasting the weather, environmental satellites are capable of finding new natural resources, and communications satellites are used in TV broadcasting.
All these can improve the living standards of the people now, not to mention the basic scientific research that can be carried out in the space station.
Even democratic India is claiming that they will send astronauts to the moon before China will.

The hosting of the Olympics has allowed China to gain valuable expertise in the logistics of hosting a large event. Japan did it in the 1960's and south Korea did it in the 1980's.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-9 17:14

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-9 18:34 編輯

I believe most of people on LYK know that China used to be the greatest nation in the world economically, technologically and politically.

Why the western world was able to not just catch up China but surpass China? It is because of its advance in sciences and technologies which drive the improvement of 社會生産力. The consequence of that is the change of social structure and power balance, and that drives political changes and reforms, and as well as the born of Democracy we are talking today. (of course, China's internal problems also had contributed to its fall behind the western world.)

It is just ignorant for people talk about Democracy and do not know how Democracy was born.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-9 22:15

LOL~ Blowing gazillions' worth of dollars only to make several million back from the aerospace program? I'd love to see you going into business, Peter boy~

It is quite true that China used to be the greatest nation in the world in terms of economy (back in Tong, Hon, Qing dynasties for certain periods), in terms of absolute political power / influence (Yuen and arguably the Qing dynasty), and in terms of cultural influence (during Sung dynasty). However, technological leadership have long been surpassed since the Renaissance era, and while the absolute political power has been strong as late as the Qing dynasty, political systems and ideals have pretty much stayed in the stone ages.

It is a blatant lie that China's downfall was due to science, technology, and GDP. Rather, the core of the problem has always been the Chinese' stupid monarchy and absolute power system -- have a good emperor such as Hong Hey and the country flourishes. Once the great leader dies, the country is totally fxxked up. Whereas with Western countries (and Britain/the UK in particular), their parliamentary system guarantees that no leader will ever be that crappy -- if they were utterly incapable, voters wouldn't voted them into Parliament in the first place. Furthermore, the persistent view of the Emperor that the country is under his personal ownership and hence all peasants must be kept obedient is also a major contributing factor to the slave-like thinking that we see even today.

Politics and economy are invariably intertwined, but don't get the cause and effects mixed up. In any case, do you dare to say that today's China lacks the economic power of the 1700-era Britain?

Funny how idiots pretend they know stuff when they don't~

-Lik

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-9 22:31

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-9 23:41 編輯

Funny how idiots pretend they know stuff when they don't~
Lik 發表於 2009-6-9 23:15

First, I didn’t say China’s downfall is due to science and technologies. Please check what I said again.

Second, of course political changes and economic changes would be intertwined and influent each other. If you can do a better job of summarizing such a complex topic in a few sentences, please show us.

Third, do you mind to tell us how the western political systems today was born and developed, and as well as the Democracy?

作者: chobit 時間: 2009-6-9 22:38

We wouldn't have Bush if what you said is true =( It's just another game they play....

[Quote]
their parliamentary system guarantees that no leader will ever be that crappy -- if they were utterly incapable, voters wouldn't voted them into Parliament in the first place.

作者: 快樂牛郎 時間: 2009-6-9 22:42

What worked in the past may not work again in the future. What seems to be bad could turn out to be benign. It's very difficult to see beyond a few centimeters.

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-9 22:45

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2009-6-10 00:02 編輯

LOL~ Blowing gazillions' worth of dollars only to make several million back from the aerospace program? I'd love to see you going into business, Peter boy~

It is quite true that China used to be the ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-9 23:15

You moron, aerospace program is profitable and is necessary for a country's scientific research. I gave you some examples of applications e.g GPS, communications, weather, natural resources, military etc.

You fuking retard, why do you still pretend not to understand that the aerospace program is very important? Who is going to make and launch satellites for China for free?
China is capable of launching satellites for other countries, thereby making a lot of money. China is setting up its own GPS system, there is no need to rely on the US satellites.
Environmental satellites are capable of finding new natural resources, and communications satellites are used in TV broadcasting.

Communications satellite is very important in business and commerce. We are talking about billions of dollars. You can't even watch some TV programs without satellite broadcasting.

How is China going to forecast the weather without weather satellite? Use American satellite?

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-9 22:47

LOL~ Blowing gazillions' worth of dollars only to make several million back from the aerospace program? I'd love to see you going into business, Peter boy~

It is quite true that China used to be the ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-10 14:15

小弟覺得, 中國射d 太空人上太空既主要目的, 係要比班美國佬知道如果要打杖既話, 中國未必會輸比佢.

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-9 22:53

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2009-6-9 23:55 編輯

小弟覺得, 中國射d 太空人上太空既主要目的, 係要比班美國佬知道如果要打杖既話, 中國未必會輸比佢.
mcjohnjohn 發表於 2009-6-9 23:47

He is not going to understand the importance of launching communication satellites, even though he uses them indirectly everyday.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-9 22:56

中國有民選政府既話絕對係一件好事.

不過, 小弟覺得而家既中國真係唔係咁適合有民選政府, 因為而家既中國, 人文水平仲係好低, 低到令好多人都覺得佢地根本唔care 有冇民選政府.

比多廿年中共啦! 比佢地搞好d 中國內政, 令中國人民既人文水平提高d 先啦~
小弟真係唔敢想像, 如果呢一刻中國既政制變成美國(或者其他已發展國家)既樣, 中國內部會有幾咁混亂.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-9 23:02

He is not going to understand the importance of launching communication satellites, even though he uses them indirectly everyday.
peter236 發表於 2009-6-10 14:53

講開又講, 如果剩係射通訊衛星, 比人地射好過啦! 駛乜用咁多錢去研究woh.
擺明而家中國係想全世界都知, 我有能力做呢樣野, 我唔駛靠你地都做得到! 呢個絕對係中國既軍事本錢.

而家唔係講值唔值得用咁多錢去證明自己既能力, 而係要話比人地聽, 我地唔比你落後, 爭大佬我都未必會輸. (好似黑社會哂馬咁樣)

歡迎光臨溫哥華老友記討論區 (http://www.loyaukee.com/forum/)