Ultraman

Yes, it's always super easy to say than work it out, men!
How about you're rich enough or your dad is rich enough and is willing to support you and your wife and your baby for the rest of your lives, would you have a healthy family in the future? Money is just one of the (and the main) reasons/excuses, but other than that, a parent has much more responsibility besides money, or should say, money is really not the main essential element to bring up a good kid. If you and your gf are not well prepared (physically, spiritually, and economically), getting married doesn't mean "you love her"; but on the other hand, you are just "being responsible" to your gf (doesn't necessary means "love"), but not your future baby. Imagine what will influence your baby's grows up, what kind of value and personality he/she will develop, what kind of future he/she will be getting.... ? Having babies is much more complicated and liable than just having sex, or even "simply get married lor". Not getting married in this inappropriate moment doesn't mean you can't/won't marry her later in the near future ga wor. If you really love your gf (future wife) and your future baby(ies), you should think twice what you should do.

Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 12:13 發表

You had unprotected sex with your gf and she's pregnant.  Now you're saying you don't love her and just being "responsible"?  That's garbage!  People think with their butts or what?  They don't know  ...

Please don't misunderstand me.

I didn't say the guy didn't love the girl but only being responsible. I meant, that is not the best way to love or to express his love. Getting married is very easy to do, but the rest of the life could be very tough. Not only the young parents' lives are tough, but also their kid. Being a responsible parent, yes you can have your own guts to face any difficulty (at least you can think that way); but you have no right to choose a tough life for your kid(s) (if you say you love your kids). Which parents don't want to provide all the best things for their kids? If you can foresee your kid will be having a very tough and unhealthy life but still want to give birth, can I call you silly-brave and irresponsible? Even more, if a child grown up from an unhealthy family, what would he/she influence to the community? Being a responsible parent, not only you should consider yourself, but also your offspring, plus the society. See how many "bad guys", adult criminals as well as young criminals out there? Can/would you say their parents have no responsibility at all? Can/would you say their parents are very responsible people?

Good and responsible parents not formula-ly raise good and responsible children. However, immature and irresponsible parents surely reduce the chance of raising good and responsible children.

Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 15:14 發表

do you see  the connection?
naive/imature kids had the forbidden fruit -> baby -> did not take the responsiblilty of being parents -> baby suffers
so who's fault is this?  is that any better than this?
naive/imature kids had the forbidden fruit -> baby -> abortion -> live in shadow for life

Honestly, there is only sad result for either situation.
Case 1: naive/immature kids had the forbidden fruit > baby > decide to give birth > baby/grown up kid suffers in the future.
Case 2: naive/immature kids had the forbidden fruit > baby > abortion > no "formed & conscious" baby to suffer, but parents might live in shadow for the rest of their lives.

Actually, the naive/immature kids shouldn't have had the forbidden fruit at the first place. What I interpret "naive/immature kids" is, very young couples who are not physically and mentally well built, and also not economically independent. No matter they have use any kind of safe preparation when they're eating the forbidden fruit, there is still a chance to be pregnant. If they're not "well prepared" for every possible consequence, they shouldn't even eat the fruit. That's call "responsible". Once they didn't consider the consequence well but have the fruit eaten and have baby, getting married at their very young and non-prepared age (I call this "inappropriate" time),  they're just being irresponsible but not responsible. Yeah, you might think getting married is the correct way to tell people you have guts to face and bear the consequence, and also being a responsible person/parent. However, very likely they can't support their lives all by themselves (not only limited to economically), and thus they'll have to ask their parents (and other relatives and friends) for help. As I said, money is not the biggest concern, for money can be borrowed but wisdom and maturity cannot. When more "innocent" people have to get involved and suffered, I won't call this a responsible action at all.

Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 16:52 發表
OK Ultraman, I see what you're trying to say now.

For one thing, are the parents in such a bad situation/condition right now?  I think for most people, they're probably not in that position.  You've said "tough" many times.  So what are the problems that this couple is facing that will be so tough and cause a unhealthy baby?  Is not able to go to party/bar too tough?  LOL  Maybe it's time for them to grow up?

Silly brave or irresponsible?  I'm sure there are people who are silly brave.  I'm not saying you shouldn't analyze the problem and come up with a plan.  I'm saying one shouldn't hide from difficulties.  It could be difficult but it's not impossible right?  Even for a low income person, it's not impossilbe to have a kid.  This is Canada, it's way better than a lot of other places already.  Giving the best to the kids?  What's the best and what the worse?  If you insist on having private school, then of course not a lot of people can afford that.  However, public school is absolutely free.  Instead of wearing Nike, you can wear Walmart shoes, etc...many people are doing that...

So how would you deal with this baby then?  I want to know your opinion.

OK, let's talk about: what essential elements/factors do you think a pair of good and responsible parents should have? Or what essential elements/factors a pair of parents should have in order to have a bigger chance to raise up good and responsible kids?
Let's brainstorm..... money (doesn't necessary to be super rich)? maturity? personality? value? social network/relationship? knowledge (in any field)? .... etc?
All you have listed out might be something most people concern (including yourself), money or something material related. But that's not "should give all the best to kids" I meant. What I meant "tough", also not or not only related to money or material issues. If you somehow agree my brainstorm elements/factors are true and valid (besides money), then I can tell you I really doubt a very young or young couple is mature enough, and have personality well built in a positive way, and have correct or good value of life, and have strong social network/relationship, and are well knowledgeable enough to raise up their kids, "future plan" to them is even more "untouchable".

Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 18:06 發表

I agree.  But there are some members who think this cannot be avoided/controlled.


Let me tell you, I don't believe in showing/telling people what I think, I do it.  If your motive is just to show t ...

Yep, the first and second consequences (eating the forbidden fruit, and become pregnant) might not able to be avoided, but the following consequences can! That's why I believe getting married in an inappropriate time is no no.

*****

Well, I didn't really mean "to show people". But OK, even not to "show off" to other people, not to "show" to your gal, no need to "prove" to anybody, but it's just your action following your own heart, I still think it might not be the best decision to get married in an inappropriate time.

Take a look on my previous brainstorm example again, how if the parents don't have all the essential elements/factors I stated but only money, or even lots of money, what likely their kid(s) would be brought up?

Ultraman

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 18:37 發表
最緊要係父母識唔識教, 同個小朋友品質優唔優良之麻.

Exactly! This is the key point I've been saying. Which parents don't want their kid to be a good and useful person, well educated and having a good job, able to gain some money...etc etc? Or at least don't want to see their kid would be a criminal or do anything harming the society.
I'm not saying "lower quality" family can only raise up lower quality children. But I'm saying which one will has a bigger probability, a "lower quality" family or a "higher quality" family? ("quality" doesn't only limited to money but all other essential elements/factors) If a lower quality family still wants to have kids, that means they'll have a bigger risk to have high quality kids. In other words, the parents are less responsible.
(Note: not mean to offend anyone.)

Ultraman

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 18:49 發表


why can't the first and second consequences be avoided?

Since parents can't spy their kids 24-7, no matter how straight they teach their kids, how much care and love they provide, kids also learn from their peer group and from other resources. And since they're young, they have higher curiosity in sex and thus very easy and normal to taste the forbidden fruit. (doesn't mean "all" kids will do)

my brother and I grew up nicely.

Haha.. do you mean you're brought up from a family that lacks of money, good personality, correct and positive value of life, knowledge, ....etc, but you and your brother still grew up nicely? Even so, how can you be sure if your family got everything, you and your brother could be a lot better than now?
(You may say you and your brother think you two are good enough and are pretty satisfied with the current stage. However, this is only from your pov, the society might be longing for a better person.)

Ultraman

原帖由 kabuki 於 2008-12-17 18:54 發表
but the girl hate kids and is not mature enough for rising a baby...

That's the key killing part! Even the young couple (and even their families) are rich, have all the "essential elements/factors" mentioned, "the gal hates kids"....!
The fact is, even the parents are with lots of love (despite all the money and other factors) to their kids, doesn't necessary mean they know how to teach and raise their beloved kids. Now the mother-to-be "hates" kids, very likely she pays less attention and less patience and less love to her kids. Would the kid(s) be heavily and happily raised up?
Don't think she'll change and get better once the baby is born. See how many women think their men will change after certain time or even got married?! Not just men, sometimes people won't change.

Ultraman

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 19:36 發表

that's the problem of those kids. ppl should think first before act.

I didn't say that is not the problem of those kids (and surely it is their problem, no excuse). But cuz you asked me why that situation can't be avoided, right? I just to tell you why.

hahahaha, how can you be sure if my family got everything, my and my brother could be a lot better than now? well, would I be Obama?

Yes, I can't be that sure. I'm just analyzing probability. It's like, I would say there should be no snow during summer time in Vancouver, but I won't/can't say 100% not. But do you think there is a big chance that would be snowing during summer time in Vancouver?

yes, it is my point of view only. were you talking with Obama's pov? you are so great~

Nope. I don't of Obama's pov, and that's why I'm not planning to have any kids.

[ 本帖最後由 Ultraman 於 2008-12-17 20:31 編輯 ]

Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 19:42 發表
Ultraman, I think you and me value things very differently.  I'm against abortion.  So what's high quality and low quality family?  I'm afraid that most families in this world are low to mediocre quality families....so they all shouldn't have babies?  If that's the case, then I would NOT be in this world now...LOL

Yes, I think our values are quite different.
First I need to declare, I have no religious background, yet I do not have any intention to against any particular religion.
I know some religious against abortion. However, what's their main purpose? I believe, they think people have no rights to kill a life, no right to "treat others badly". Now the question is, what is the best way (or a good way) to "treat others in good"? Killing a baby seems not right, seems not good; but to raise up a baby with nothing good in hand means good or bad? I think people also have no rights to minimize a baby's future development.
Yes, to "kill" a baby is to take away its life right away. But how if to "ruin" a baby's (a future adult) whole life even it's still alive? Ever heard about these old Chinese statements: "life is so valuable, but love worths a lot more." and "no freedom, rather die." ? There are a lot of things worth so much more than lives. (without particular religious pov.)

And I didn't say/mean low quality families shouldn't have any kid. Back to the original discussing point, I'm comparing "responsible" and "irresponsible" families/parents. Yes, low quality families surely can have kids, yet I think they're less responsible or even irresponsible; but on the other hand, "high quality" families/parents don't necessary mean they are very responsible (because they can have all good elements on hand, but just not acting them out).

I guess his friends, relatives, parents, siblings, employer, teachers, etc can all confirm if he/she is a good person right?  I guess if one's happy about him/herself, then at least he/she should not be suffering right?  So growing up for a poor family not necessarily mean sufferings right?

All depends on how ambitious and zealous you rank and want your life to be. Yes, there are many people who are satisfied for their current stages and not working on their next stage for further improvement and development. 90 marks is pretty good already, how about 100 marks? Then 100 marks is damn good indeed, but how about 105 marks?...
Of course, this kind of character might not only be brought up by the family itself but also depends on one's own thinking and personality etc.