Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 21:29 發表
Killing a baby is to treat someone good, care, responsible, love?  Even not talking about this religiously I don't see how this is so.  I think being a responsible parent means to do whatever it takes ...

Once again, proves that our POV and value is really different.
Despite any religious background, here are some other examples:
- Why telling "lie" is not good but "white lie" is OK? Doesn't any kind of lie mean dishonesty?
- What do you think to put a coma patient "true permanently sleep", is it good or bad to "itself" and "its" family and relatives and friends "it" cares?
- If one day my wife and I being kidnapped, and the terrorist wants to kill either one of us in front of the other, and release the other, what would you choose?
  My answer to this: at first I may think to let the terrorist kill myself instead of my wife. But wait, once I got killed and leave my wife behind, it's really cruel and difficult for her to leave alone without me, to face each single heart breaking day for the rest of her life. So I will definitely let my wife being killed, let her life ends over there and I'll face all the heart breaking days.

Debating point: How come I let somebody kills my wife but not myself?

Any thought?

Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 21:29 發表 Have you heard "tomorrow will be a better day"?

This statement obviously is for people currently staying in a tough, difficult, negative situation; but try to say something to comfort and encourage them. Does this statement always work? Yes, only if the someone tries hard to improve his/her life. Which most cases ain't like that.

According to your logic, it's irresponsible to have kids if you're low quality family, isn't that what you said?  So to be responsible (a virtue of human being is that they want to be good and being responsible is a good thing), you shouldn't have kids then right?

I say "less responsible" and "irresponsible", depends on different cases.
For example: If the parents are very poor but they still want to have kids, then they can't even feed their kids. OK, then they might have to reply on the government to feed them. In other words, they're "using" (relying) other people's resource/money "plannedly". I will call this irresponsible.
But for the first place, they're not responsible to their kids.

Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 21:35 發表
Hypothetical case:
If someone lost some limps because of an accident, you should tell him to suicide to end this pain and not ruin the rest of his life?  And be responsible for his family/government too so that they don't have to take care of him for the rest of his life?  If he doesn't suicide, then he's irresponsible?

A valid hypothetical case.
OK, there is not his/her fault to lose some of his/her limps (assuming that) though. But the "afterlife" is all depends on himself/herself. If he/she is just sitting/lying down doing nothing, but only waiting for other people's help, waiting for "sponsors", waiting for the government to feed him/her..., that is surely irresponsible. Irresponsible to himself/herself, and irresponsible to the world.
But on the other hand, if he/she "stands up" to face his/her new life, he/she studies hard, he/she tries to find a suitable job, he/she tries to be less independent but still needs to seek for others' help..., he is responsible.

You know the differences among these cases? A very poor family/parent (not only limited to economical poor) KNOWS they're poor, but still ignoring all the possible negative consequence to have kids, this is what I mean irresponsible.

The victim in your hypothetical case didn't plan and didn't know in advance to lose limbs. Only if he is lying down doing nothing, and we're not counting how much and how great his/her achievement would be in the future, he/she is not irresponsible.
Clear?

Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 22:04 發表
let me try to answer these, see if we're really different...LOL

- Why telling "lie" is not good but "white lie" is OK? Doesn't any kind of lie mean dishonesty?
To me any lie is not good.

Yes, to me, all lies are not good and involve dishonesty. (at least we are common in this, haha...)
HOWEVER, I have to use some white lies in my life. That's not only being selfish to make my life better/easier/happier, but that also make the people around me feeling better/happier.
If one day your gf/wife puts up some new make-up and ask you what she looks, even your heart thinks she's very ugly, would you say so?

- What do you think to put a coma patient "true permanently sleep", is it good or bad to "itself" and "its" family and relatives and friends "it" cares?
If you ask me, I won't.

Mind to explain why you won't? (despite your religious background)
I will(providing that I am in the same family, and I have the authority to say yes or no.) Yes, I love the one lying on the bed, but I also love the ones still "alive". Looking the living ones bear such a sad burden everyday, false hoping everyday, and then heart breaking everyday again..... , I rather choose to end the life of the one lying on bed, but relief all others who are still living and need to move on for their lives. Yes, I will be very upset and heart breaking too, but that is my choice.

- If one day my wife and I being kidnapped, and the terrorist wants to kill either one of us in front of the other, and release the other, what would you choose?
I'd say to the terrorist "up to you"...lol  I don't think either of us is easily replaceable by the other...so doesn't matter who they kill

To tell the terrorist "up to you" doesn't mean you love your wife and will protect her as you need to do. How if the terrorist says: "OK, then I'll rape your wife first and then kill you but release her afterwards."?
I know, that's only my hypothetical question, but you didn't want to pick your choice, that actually reflects what kind of person you are. (I have no negative meaning at all.)

Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 22:34 發表

你講晒啦...
It doesn't matter who you're irresponsible to you're still being irresponsible.  So to be a good guy, a responsible guy, to your country and family, then low quality family should not have kids right?  Isn't it the same thing?

No no, I'm not trying to cover my own shxt, but really wants to tell you what I think.
To answer your question straightly, YES, I do think "low quality" (not just poor, but lack of all the essential elements I mentioned, and even more)families/parents shouldn't have any kid if they want to be a responsible family/parent.
Tell me what is a good reason a "lack-of-all-the-essential-elements" family/parent still wants to have kid(s)?

"tomorrow will be better" works most of the time ga wor...given that the current condition is bad...life is full of valleys and peaks, if you're at the bottom, next thing will be a peak (whether big or small), you won't be at the bottom all the time ga wor...I'd say it works most of the time la...LOL

I agree, "tomorrow will be better" works sometimes. Yet it only works on those people who "still have something in hand" (have potential or strong potential to be better). But it's very very unlikely for those people who "have absolutely nothing in hand" (not even one chip to gamble).

[ 本帖最後由 Ultraman 於 2008-12-17 22:53 編輯 ]

Ultraman

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2008-12-17 22:36 發表


maybe, you are correct. But I am glad that my parents are "irresponsible" to give birth to me. Moneywise, we are poor, and we lived at 廉租屋 in my childhood. Fortunately, they loved me a lot! I (also my brother) was the highest prioirity in their lives. Thanks God that I have them as my parents.

You didn't see the difference?
First, your family was not "absolutely low quality" at the beginning when the time your parents decided to give birth to you. Cuz both your dad and mom had a job. Their situation had to be changed only when your dad had an accident, which they couldn't predict in their initial plan (even rich people can have accidents).
Second, by looking at you nowadays (I mean according to the chats on the forum), your parents were economically poor in the past but not poor in many other ways (those "essential elements/factors" I mentioned), and that's why the mcjohnjohn we keep chatting today is polite, self-confident, self-satisfied, positive, having a gf...etc. (not polishing your shoes, but I think that's most of us think too.) That truly reflects your parents are not irresponsible! And yes, your parents should be proud of having you to be their son; and yes, you should be proud to have them to be your parents.

Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-17 23:04 發表

So low quality = lack of all essential elements?  Is that your final definition?   essentials meaning you will die without it?  if that's the case, then I'd say they shouldn't *plan* to have kids too lor...LOL

Yes, what I mean "low quality" is "lack of all essential elements" ("all" doesn't only limited to what I have mentioned). But what I mean "essential elements" are different to those "can't live without" things such as air (oxygen), water, food... . However, they're something essential to raise up "better" kids. ("better" means in many ways)

For this kind of people, they might  be able to 睇化 tomorrow...so situation is the same, but the mind/attitude have changed.

"睇化" means something negative happened, once or frequently, you may not feeling disappointed but just let it as is, since you know you have no control to change it.
So, it doesn't mean you (or someone) are happy with the current situation.

Ultraman

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2008-12-18 00:06 發表

你真係見得好男人太少啦...haha

Then, here is another topic for discussion: what is "好男人"? (might vary to different people)