BiscottiGelato

got passing? wow. i never dare joining stuff that allows passing. Mission have so much concrete walls. Not to mention that it looks like a wet day?

BiscottiGelato

I guess passing in the main straight is okay. Passing at the back straight (after turn 2?) is a bit tight and a bit short, not something I'd dare doing. Not to mention turn 3? is the tightest corner and somewhat hard to judge.

Good stuff and looks like a lot of fun tho!

BTW. Who took the video and how was it taken? Was the camera mounted or someone was at the back seat? What camera and what mount??

BiscottiGelato

4 passing zones? gum dor? After turn 2, after turn 3, after turn 6 and after turn 9?

BiscottiGelato

Lift throttle is rarely a problem in low speed corners which is pretty much all of them at Mission. I dont' recall any turns long enough where I'd wanna apply steady and relatively high throttle pressure through the corner for extended periods of time, such that I'd even have a chance to upset the car's balance by much with a lift of the throttle. I'd say over powering on corner exits for RWD cars will be the more common way oversteering happens at Mission.

Having all that said, with a TSX, it'd be pretty difficult to overcome the VSA and get the tail slipping. I'd say chasing the car in front too close with brakes fading (common for stock brakes) is the closest thing that'd get u into trouble at Mission.

BiscottiGelato

Technicalities, I am not very familiar. Nor do I fully understand how VSA works, esp for front wheel cars. You can try this for an explanation
http://world.honda.com/news/1997/t970702d.html

You'd just have to try it to believe it. I've seen an S2000 w/ VSA unable to break out the rear on a wet surface no matter hard the driver tries (driving in a circle, first lift off for weight transfer then flooring throttle for traction break). Once VSA is turned off, he spinned out multiple times just going in a circle without trying anything (probably minor throttle adjustment already threw him out).

Not to say that one should be reckless once the electronics nannies are on. Definately no substitute for driving the car properly (smoother cornering, slow in fast out, mid corner lift off/hard brake, over gassing on corner exits, etc). Just telling ACC-HE that if he wanna try the track, it's fairly safe as long as he's not reckless. With VSA ON, oversteer should be the least of his concern.

BiscottiGelato

Well, BG, my comment was meant to be more of a general one, although it could certainly apply to the ...
Lik 發表於 2010-7-1 13:12

Turn 9 is quite tricky i'd admit. Hard to resist applying lots of gas, and sometimes too much gas, which is usually the initial cause of the oversteer. Subsequent contraction of the throttle definately makes matter much worse.

BiscottiGelato

RWD 太多油會甩
VSA 可以令你唔甩

FWD trail brake, 彎中 Lift throttle 個尾會出
VSA 可能會令你救唔到 ...
Derek128 發表於 2010-7-1 23:40

RWD Power Oversteer
DSC cuts throttle/apply brakes to outer wheels

RWD Lift off Oversteer
DSC pply brakes to outer wheels to stop spin momentum

FWD Lift off Oversteer
VSA apply brakes to outer (in Honda's case, outer front) wheel

In no case wll stability control systems apply gas to any wheels for correction (not with low end systems from BMW/VSA from Honda anyways). I am no control engineer of any vehicle stability systems here. From what I've seen + some of my interpretation, stability systems simply does not recover the vehicle the way a driver will recover the vehicle (via restoration of weight balance, applying gas when oversteering + counter steer). Electronics system cut in a lot earlier than a usual driver will react, and uses braking of specific wheels to remove the angular momentum of the spin.

In such a case of lift off oversteer on a FWD Acura, VSA probably stops the spin momentum before you react to the oversteer. Not from experience from any VSA equipped FWD cars, nor a Honda engineer here. I'd give their engineers some credit when they say braking only the outer front wheel will stop the spin momentum. Obviously there will be times where the oversteer will not be completely stopped by the VSA. Nothing is perfect. Neither are any drivers. I've even seen Lewis Hamilton caught out in the dry spinning out his vehicle. Regardless, I'd not discredit the ability of stability systems on stopping oversteering conditions, lift-off or power, FWD or RWD.

If you haven't seen this, Bosch ESP vs Tiff Needle on ice with a FWD Jaguar X-Type at 2:00 mark. SSlow motion shows it does so by braking the outer front wheel. Tiff Needle simply couldn't react and counter steer in time at 70mph on sheet ice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3m24bjkfg0

All in all, going with Drivings Unlimited, they simply recommend you to leave ESP/VSA/DSC on if you have it on the track. It just saves your ass a lot more times than u'd imagine. Obviously one should learn to drive and not get the vehicle into oversteering conditions in the first place. However with ESP/VSA/DSC on, it dramatically reduces both power and lift-off oversteer on all vehicles on the track.

BiscottiGelato

just looked at more pics on track day... my TSX so stock, and AT, will be laughed at for the whole d ...
ACC-HE 發表於 2010-7-2 00:04

Obviously you might find it odd if you go with VCMC, as most cars are modded there. However from my experience going plenty of AutoX and track days with BMWCCBC/Drivings Umlimited, tons of AT cars, heavy beasts like 5 series or Subaru Wagons. Most people runs stock cars, stock brakes, stock pads, stock tires, etc etc. It's about having fun and learning to drive in a safe environment, not so much about souping up the car at all.

In fact, it might be a better learning experience with stock tires and stock brakes. You learn the characteristics of your tires/brakes better. It takes more skills to manage your brakes properly to not over use them and pre-maturely getting them into fading temperatures.

BiscottiGelato

fanbanlo你應該都知所有autocross event都有分class，所以你唔係用一部廠車去同D 改裝車砌，你當然可以用你 ...
spoonek4 發表於 2010-7-2 16:05

Not quite. Don't know if you even been to BMWCCBC events to make such a statement. BMWCCBC is just the event organizer, Drivings Unlimited conducts everything on that day (well, maybe other than taking photos and such...)

Drivings Unlimited is basically a group of people that does nothing but driving, racing, teach driving, etc. They train police, security personells, coach racers, organizes corporate events, manufacturer vehicle test drive events, etc. Some of the instructors races part time themselves. They basically drive for a living and I don't think they'd have problem teaching you on FWD or RWD. They also seem to have more experience with more varying types of cars and students (think what kinda cars D 呀叔s and Si Lais can drive in to BMWCCBC/Drivings Unlimited's Safety courses: SUVs, wagons... or police cars, armored vehicles....). I've seen stock 90s Corollas, super souped up CRXs, X5, Volvo wagons... to Lotus Elise, 911s new and old, and in one case on a Mission day, a Porsch Carrera GT... So it's definatley not just BMWs there. It's not BMWCCBC members teaching you there. Executives usually just show up to ensure payment and attendance, then they just sit back and relax. Drivings Unlimited are the ones who does all the heavy lifting.

Pro on BMWCCBC/Drivings Unlimted events are you get tons of times around the course. Averages 40+ a day for about $140 bucks? No cone work, everything is taken care of for you. Also, professionals who drives and teaches for a living. Cons on BMWCCBC/Drivings Unlimited events are they do not time you. And it can be exhausting to put in 40ish laps a day.

I've been to both VCMC events and Drivings Unlimited events. I personally enjoy the latter's events more. More relaxing, more consistency in coaching among instructors. And simply putting 8 laps in + cone work just wastes my day. To purely just have fun driving, BMWCCBC hands down. Otherwise I'd recommend taking a VCMC Velocity to learn the basics, practicing with BMWCCBC events, and when you know what you are doing, go back to VCMC's events to get a time to verify your skills.

BiscottiGelato

July 11 2010 at British Columbia Driving Center at Pitt Meadows Airport


Cool, sounds fun!
ACC-HE 發表於 2010-7-2 17:01

I'm thinking of going to the Driving Skills (Auto X day) in August, then hitting Mission (non-passing) again with them coming October.