rockypath

First of all, your logic is completely flawed here, Rocky-BS-dude. The de facto referendum is not a  ...
Lik 發表於 2010-5-16 22:29

Who is BSing here?

Forcing an election which Hong Kong people do not want and do not need, deciding the way and standard of how to interoperate the voting result in your own terms and telling the Hong Kong people – “you must suck it up” is your interpretation of democracy?

Did not the Hong Kong people send a clear message? Sorry to disappoint you. If they force another election again, I believe the turn-out rate will be even worse than this time.

mcjohnjohn

First of all, your logic is completely flawed here, Rocky-BS-dude. The de facto referendum is not a political loophole. In the true spirit of democracy, if you do not support the cause of referendum, you simply vote AGAINST it to shoot it down. If the DAB dogs had the guts to come out, you simply vote for them to veto the referendum. Since the DAB suckers were too chicken to blaze the trials of democracy, the other option would have been to vote for the likes of 白姐姐 or other candidates. And hey, within the rules of the de facto referendum, you even get to kick out the LSD / CP "trouble makers".
Lik 發表於 2010-5-17 14:29

Here is exactly what my friend told me:
Friend: "I am against referendum, and I am not going to vote."
I: "Why don't you vote? You can vote for those against referendum."
Friend: "I don't want to vote another shxt... it is damx even thinking of voting to 白姐姐."
I: "Oh..."

MoiRhapsody

Isn't the functional constituency a political loophole of the parliamentary system???

mcjohnjohn

Isn't the functional constituency a political loophole of the parliamentary system???
MoiRhapsody 發表於 2010-5-17 15:09

都唔知邊鬼個o係香港倡議埋呢d 咁既功能組別.

MoiRhapsody

功能組別原來係肥彭整出黎增加民選議席既方法，
點知呢家變成俾人利用做保皇！

Lik

Here is exactly what my friend told me:
Friend: "I am against referendum, and I am not going to vote ...
mcjohnjohn 發表於 2010-5-16 23:06

Does your friend even know what the de facto referendum is about? What the issue at hand is? Is he aware that by saying he is against the referendum, he is really saying he supports the existence of functional constituency and that he does not want a generally elected HKSAR CEO as soon as possible?

People who don't know politics really shouldn't pretend that they do...

-Lik

Lik

功能組別原來係肥彭整出黎增加民選議席既方法，
點知呢家變成俾人利用做保皇！ ...
MoiRhapsody 發表於 2010-5-16 23:24

咁比例代表制亦係中方當年諗出來去 make sure 親中派政黨一定可以有人入局嘅策略來嘅，但係點知家陣咪邊成益咗社民連呢類政治組織響議會裡面做頂心杉？

-力

mcjohnjohn

Does your friend even know what the de facto referendum is about? What the issue at hand is? Is he  ...
Lik 發表於 2010-5-17 15:24

我只知道佢地一向係泛民既支持者, 對民主有一定程度上既訴求. 不過今次, 佢地都唔滿意社民連同公民黨今次既變相公投. 我quote下佢地既意見比大家參考下:

MJJ and Friends A, B, C:

A: 當今天的投票率偏低時, 泛民議員又是否會重新審視民意,檢討民主的真正意義?

B: 唔會, 佢地只會話比人打壓...

A: 民主的真正意義是包容和尊重民意,一步到位式的民主改革真的對香港有利?議員動輒就辭職迫選民表態,那還選議員幹甚麼?

MJJ: 其實香港人都幾可憐, 今次泛民擺到明係想爭取普選同廢除功能組別, 而d 市民都唔去投票, 唔通香港人真係咁喜歡小圈子選舉嗎?... 唉...

B: 只係睇唔過眼佢地用咁手法迫人投票.... 投左票又可以改變到d咩? 香港係城市, 唔係國家, 唔好搞港獨...

A: 民主本身是好的事情,但是不理會政治現實,硬要一步到位式'的爭取就不是普遍香港人所認同的方法,也非明智的做法.為何不先行出一小步,慢慢地理性地討論和爭取?

MJJ: 我覺得班泛民已經去到一個忍無可忍既地步. 一個又一個律師, 都不計較被人指罵, 就係為左香港既民主, 我覺得佢地絕對係對香港既民主有貢獻.
當然, 出左班掟蕉既議員, 佢地真係好激進, 不過, 對於佢地黎講, 呢d 都只係一個手段, 因為佢地覺得民主派一向施文既作風係唔work, 仲會比人烚. 既然比人烚, 點解唔大聲d, 起碼等d 人知道自己唔係好蝦.

A: 但是如果主流民意是希望循序漸進而泛民議員又視而不見,聽而不聞...那在他們來說民主又是甚麼?既然他們想全香港人表態,那今天我們已經表態了,他們是否仍繼續爭取2012年雙普選?還是可以先協妥一下,帶領香港向前走一步?香港不是只有普選一個問題,有普選也不可以解決所有問題...既然他們是律師,就應該尊重基本法.我從來不覺得誰在烚他們

MJJ: 民意並唔係想乜野循序漸進, 如果真係循序漸進, 點解要搞一個區議會議員既立法會議席? 咁樣同小圈子特首選舉有乜分別? 點睇到係循序漸進呢?
2012 雙普選, 擺到明一定唔work 啦, 班泛民係唔想自己既底線比人越踩越遠, 唔通真係要2047先有普選? 而家既香港政制, 根本就係一個假民主, 就算立法會果30個民選議員通過左d 野, 大部分都過唔到小圈子既功能組別, 好似玩咁...

路人甲: 循序漸進就等於見步行步? 過了2012才傾2017..到時又拖下拖下..2047都唔會有野睇....

A: 再繼續下去,那怕真的要等到2047

路人甲: 哈哈...其實你每天上班..都會經歷.."見步行步..過左今次至算啦."的情況...你感到有多可怕呢?

MJJ: 其實因為香港人已經慣左呢個見步行步既人生, 所以對香港政府既民主政策唔係太大抗拒. 事實上, 香港不斷被大陸拉著鼻子走, 所謂既基本法, 只係大陸統治香港既工具, 港人治港暫時黎睇只係一個空談.

B: 嘩, 公事靜ying ying, 估唔到呢到咁有火. MJJ, 民主係少數服從多數, 如果唔係唔叫民主. 眼見咁低O既投票率, 民調都唔支持今次補選, 咁佢地強行補選, 就係反民意, 反民主!!! 佢地唔好叫泛民, 只可以叫自己反對派!!!

MJJ: "民主係少數服從多數, 如果唔係唔叫民主", 冇人話唔服從多數, 你班人唔去投票, 就即話代表乜野? 你咁做唔係代表你表左態, 只係代表你連態都唔表, 根本冇去表達自己既意見乍... 如果你唔like 佢地既idea, 你唔應該唔投票, 而係應該去投反對票.

B: MJJ, 沒有反對票的, 只有廢票... 但反對派對廢票會有唔同解讀, 又會推高個投票率, 比反對派理解為支持公投. 所以為左唔支持公投, 我選擇唔投票... 唔投票都係一種表態黎架...

C: MJJ，好耐冇見，一見面就同你打對台。我都係支持吾投票既

C: 因為實在太吾認同佢地既做法。吾投票其實已經表達左我既意見，就係吾認同佢地。我相信咁低既投票率已經反映左大部份人都有相同既唸法。希望佢地睇清楚民意，吾好話比人打壓。

MJJ: 咁我只想講, 如果你唔贊成公投, 的而且確係應該唔投票, 但如果你係唔認同廢除功能組別同盡快落實普選, 你應該投反對票(即唔投果d 政綱係廢除功能組別同盡快落實普選既候選人), 如果支持廢除功能組別同盡快落實普選, 就應該投佢地 or 支持廢除功能組別同盡快落實普選既候選人.
當然, 香港根本冇公投法, 就算真係投出要廢除功能組別同盡快落實普選, 都唔代表政府要follow. 但試問除左呢個方法, 仲有乜野辦法可以令全港市民一齊表演自己既意見呢? 泛民只好利用補選既制度既漏動, 去同政府玩一鋪.

B: MJJ, 08年有一百五十萬人投左票, 宜家只有五十萬. 五十萬中未必個個投比反對派. 民意咁清楚, 大多數人唔支持公投, 咁都叫唔係多數人?
補選係無反對票的, 唔想擇陳淑莊, 但其他人更不知所謂, 如果夾硬投, 最後只有投廢票. 如困有反對票, 我第一個投, 唔支持今次公投.
上次同你傾開你都唔係話咁支持, 做咩突然咁右呀?

B: MJJ, 唔同意你個講法. 補選同公投係兩樣野. 例如九龍東兩個候選人都支持廢除功能組別同盡快落實普選, 咁反對的市民又有何選擇呢?

A: 兄弟們,不要勞氣,民主不就是應包容不同人的意見嗎?不投票不代表不要民主,也不是認同功能組別.只是民主本身就是要平衡社會各方的利益和意見.我不明白的是點解一定要立刻決定全廢和不廢,又點解一定要係2012而唔可以循序漸進?既然兩年前已經選了泛民代表我們入議會爭取,為何現在要花多一億多去迫選民去選多次?如果老是互不妥協,原地踏步,那恐怕一百年後也不會有普選.

mcjohnjohn

功能組別原來係肥彭整出黎增加民選議席既方法，
點知呢家變成俾人利用做保皇！ ...
MoiRhapsody 發表於 2010-5-17 15:24

條蛋撻王咁醒, 佢一定係專登留d 手尾玩我地d 香港人!!!

mcjohnjohn

咁比例代表制亦係中方當年諗出來去 make sure 親中派政黨一定可以有人入局嘅策略來嘅，但係點知家陣咪邊成 ...
Lik 發表於 2010-5-17 15:30

當年單議席單票制真係令班民建聯輸到P哂K...
不過, 話時話, 比例代表制真係公平d 既.