Can I ask a question? If CCP believed the country was in a crisis of collapsing, do you think it would use any force that is necessary to restore the order and deal with the consequence later? Do you think other countries will do differently if they are under the same situation?
That is very likely what Elder Deng had in mind, and hence the iron fisted bloody approach to massacre the students. Would other countries do the same? Some might, but many more will not. Martial law will likely be imposed. Batons, water canons, rubber bullets will be the weapons of choice of the anti-riot police. But what did the CCP use? Live ammunition and tanks. Even in the recent riots in France and Thailand over the last several years, did you see the same mass murder taking place?
There is no need to look further. Just look at our neighbour – USA. It had not only done the same thing (it was not even a movement to overthrow the government), but it invaded other countries and overthrew the governments of other countries as well for the great and mighty reason – to protect the American people, the Freedom, and the Democracy which many people had admired and praised.rockypath 發表於 2009-6-6 15:10
I like it when people compare the US to China, thinking that it can act as some sort of justification for the CCP's sins. Assuming that the US' Iraq campaign is a sin, does it justify CCP's crimes as well? More importantly, there is no end to lobby groups and harsh criticisms on the Bush administration for the wars. The US does not silence such opposition in any way. Does the same happen in China? Can 6.4 be mentioned? What of the Tiananmen mothers' requests? Why are there house arrests for sensitive figures?
The most basic and fundamental human rights are sorely lacking in China. No logical argument/discussion can be made against something as basic and simple as that.
That is very likely what Elder Deng had in mind, and hence the iron fisted bloody approach to massacre the students. Would other countries do the same? Some might, but many more will not. Martial law ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 17:06
First, the reason I share with you the question is try to help you to have a much rounded view of 6.4 and look at it from a greater perspective.
Second, you had said much about CCP should have not done this or that. Can I ask if you were Elder Deng, what would you do differently and why would you believe you can resolve the crisis effectively (we are talking about the crisis of the collapse of a nation).
If I were Elder Deng, I would sack Li Peng and talk to the students with an open mind. The students have proven their qualities to be a peaceful bunch, as did the majority of the public. They had an agenda with requests and demands, and their pledges are legitimate ones. 趙紫陽 might have had a chance to sooth the students through negotiation had he had Elder Deng's support. Even in the final stages of the conflict, I would never have authorized the use of real ammunition and tanks on the students.
A couple of things worked against Elder Deng. As much of a genius and a revolutionary as he was, he was turning old and stubborn. He had been in power for too long, and everyone knows absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Chinese mindset of an ever-ruling emperor corrupted his thinking as well and fueled his cravings to cling onto power. Last but not least, the inherently flawed system of how the CCP worked instilled fear of losing power into every high ranking leader at the time -- in the old old CCP, once you have forfeited power, you run a high risk of getting "challenged", denounced, humiliated, and possibly death.
The country of China will not fall. With a 5000 year history on our backs, I think history has proven me correct. Governments may come and go, but so what? Chinese need to get used to the idea that the Party is not the country. The governing party is only there to govern with the interests of the country, not their own party agenda, in mind. Their primary job is to steer the country in the right direction, not to remain in power forever. As an extreme example that failed miserably, you need to look no further than North Korea. Kim Jong Il's government exists only to keep himself (and his successor) in power. His government is NOT interested in the doing what is best for his country.
In any case, the Tiananmen students were not out to topple the government in the first place. They wanted change and political reform, but they didn't ask for the government to topple.
If I were Elder Deng, I would sack Li Peng and talk to the students with an open mind. The students have proven their qualities to be a peaceful bunch, as did the majority of the public. They had an a ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 21:01
You moron, how do you even know what those students were thinking 20 years ago? Please do not make things up.
You don't even have a clue of how to develop a country. Perhaps you should go to slumdog millionaire India and see how corrupted they are.
The economic development in China for the past 30 years have made China more ready for political reforms in the future. Right now the per capita GDP and average education level of mainland Chinese are still lower than that of Taiwanese when they first had their democratic elections. But the time will come.
Again, economic reforms should come before political reforms, just like in Japan/South Korea/Taiwan, which all have way higher per capita GDP than slumdog millionaire India.
And one more thing. Contrary to what you have repeated shown in various threads and posts, I would never underestimate India and its people. Their country is rich with history, and their citizens are as resourceful and creative as Chinese. And may I remind you, China is NOT the only rapidly developing country with a robust economy. India is not that much further behind.
If I were Elder Deng, I would sack Li Peng and talk to the students with an open mind. The students have proven their qualities to be a peaceful bunch, as did the majority of the public. They had an a ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 21:01
I have to say it sincerely after reading your post (nothing personal) – “you should find out more about 6.4 from different sources. Not just things happened in Beijing and at Tiananmen Square, but what happened outside of it. The knowledge of the political, social and economic environment of that time will help you to have a better view of 6.4.”
It is too much to explain the situation and I have to leave to do some more research on your own. I can provide some keywords for you.
• The possibility of 政變;
• 黨內和軍隊內部的分歧被公開化（趙紫陽has much responsibility for this）並引起社會不安和形勢劇烈惡化. This cost CCP the opportunity to continue communicating with students since the situation worsen rapidly (you might not like to hear this.);
• People and students began to walk out from factories and schools and got on to streets across the country;
• Students and people began to flood into Beijing from all around the country;
• Local governments began to became dysfunctional;
• Ramous began to spread across the nations;
• Untrue foreign news reports began to flood the western media network;
• The possibility of 國家分裂
• … and much more… (you can continue the list after you find out more about it)
Just another question to you – if China was 分裂to different smaller states because of 6.4, what will China become today and what kind of life will the mainland Chinese people be in?
Elder Deng had said – “穩定壓倒一切”. Do you understand why he said so and what he mean and under what situation he said that?
"Just another question to you – if China was 分裂to different smaller states because of 6.4, what will China become today and what kind of life will the mainland Chinese people be in?"
Google "Fall of USSR"
NOt exactly the same, but not too far away from it either ...
發表於 2009-6-6 16:06
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