peter236

原帖由 utopia 於 2008-2-25 09:28 發表



It is people like you making people disrespect China. Have you ever heard Lik or I call you a moron during the debate or whatsoever? If pointing out China's weakness is called Anti-China, I have no ...

How could you mix up things like that? The Japs have never officially apologized to China/Korea. Sure, a couple of Japanese prime ministers have so-called "apologized", but they did so in the name of a private citizen, not officially as prime minister of Japan. Many other Asian countries are still asking for a formal apology, not just a "regret" from the Japs. To this day the Japs are still playing with words. These Japs are still denying that they invaded Asia during WWII, Nanjing massacre, comfort ladies, rewriting high school history books, how do you expect them to actually apologized? So many experts around the world, outside of China/Korea, agree that the Japs have not apologized yet, and you are here saying that they have, is there something wrong with you? You should feel ashamed of yourself. Remember that South Korea is democratic and does not need to use this to "rally" the country. All the Chinese/Koreans want is a straight apology from the Japs government. If China wants to use this thing, then there would be demonstrations outside the Jap embassy everyday. The Germans have banned the neo-Nazi groups in Germany. but the Japs are still tolerating the right-wing militarists, this shows they have done nothing to educate their own people.

As for Lik, why is he such as moron? This is because he only knows how to blindly bash China/HK, with no contribution whatsoever. Maybe he has received little or no education in world politics and world history. You should not misunderstand what is meant here. If something bad happens in China/HK then we should criticize, but that is meaningless if we do not make an effort to contribute.

[ 本帖最後由 peter236 於 2008-2-25 12:59 編輯 ]

peter236

原帖由 Traum 於 2008-2-25 09:08 發表

Oh yes, of course. You win this this time again! So ging la~

-Lik

The point here is not to "win". You see, whenever we discuss something we should give rational arguments. When you blindly believe you are right then there is something strange about you.

utopia

http://snipr.com/japan_apologies

utopia

Peter,

Please read the above link information.
Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not an expertise in history, just do my research on China history lately ..........and.....I dunno
what to say

It's much  more than these information convinced me about this part of history. But above link is the clearest information that can explain my frustration. It's like, it's something you strongly believe and all the sudden, a Westerner list all the detail inside out of China background combined with this list of apology which make me speechless...

I also hope this list of apology is not real so that our motherland is not lying to us, younger generation.

I can understand why 6/4 happened, sad but it's something he gotta do to stop the chaos. I can understand why China has to go with communist society, along with all the terrible mistakes in the past. However, I hope ........truly hope China government didn't lie about these apology or hide these apology from media. Or else, I truly disappointed on my so called motherland.

utopia

p.s. Please let me know if she quote wrong, so I would feel better in some way too, Peter

Hi Zan

I was hoping people would read my post in entirety. I'm so hurt

There's a difference between the German and the Japanese response because they are different people, accused of different "crimes".

But what do you mean apologize officially? Japan has done is not once but MANY times. From the top. Prime Ministers.

Will China let you search the page for Japan's apology on Wikipedia? (I presume you are based in China). Will they let you search for info on Tianemen? If China willfully blocks this information in state-controlled media, it's not Japan's problem.

Try this link:
http://snipr.com/japan_apologies2

Discussions about reparations are cheap. Does China want money? How far back can we go? Where do I collect my cheques from countries that have shown imperialistic desires in my country? Can my Tibetian friend collect cheques from China? Can Taiwanese friends collect reparations from China? Can the Chinese friends who suffered at the hands of Mao (who has led to the death and starvation of millions of people, but is still worshipped) collect cheques from the ruling clique in Beijing?

Please read this:
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0841546.html

Let me know if these links are blocked in China. It's entirely possible. But I'll suggest workarounds.

Thanks for reading!

peter236

原帖由 utopia 於 2008-2-25 12:55 發表
http://snipr.com/japan_apologies

According to the worldwide experts, these are not apologies at all. Especially, in the original Japanese statements, there was no apology at all.

utopia

Do you think China is educating its generations well with the state controlled media where nothing is possible to be found on Tianenmen?

You did not acknowledge the link I shared for Japan's multiple apologies. Have you read the link? Do you acknowledge that apologies have come from premiers, and that NO MORE are now required?

Last I checked, there are at least 42 books in the Japanese public library (in Tokyo) that talk about Japan's involvement in Nanjing and other Asian conquests. These are not written by nationalistic trolls. They talk about the bad things done by Japan. I bet you don't know about these books, right?

As for history, no country teaches needless balderdash to kids. America is not teaching its kids about "blunders" in Vietnam. Britain is not teaching its kids massacres in its colonnies. China is tainting its history as recently as Tianemen.

Most Japanese know about the Nanjing massacre and other atrocious acts under a rogue emperor. Can't say the same for most Chinese. Even the educated Chinese who work with companies such as Deutche Bank, like yourself, have one and only one perspective that seems more colored by emotional rhetoric than information.

China is "stable"? No social unrest brewing due to glaring economic disparity? If your media hasn't fed you this information and you are therefore unfamiliar with this as a pretty plausible scenario, then you're well advised to do some googling.

If China has not blocked it. So much for prejudicing history.

utopia

4 August 1993. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono. "Undeniably, this was an act, with the involvement of the military authorities of the day, that severely injured the honor and dignity of many women. The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women" (Statement by the Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono on the result of the study on the issue of "comfort women." (Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan Web Site), Retrieved from

utopia

Textbooks are for school children. Is America teaching its kids in schools about Vietnam in a chapter called "Oops, we goofed up"? Is Britain telling its kids, "Oops we were murdering villains for 500 years of colonization"?

What is China telling its citizens? Forget textbooks. What is China doing to ENTIRE media? From google to libraries to everything: it's impossible within China to have any access to any critical view on China.

Nothing of the sort in Japan. The libraries have all the international books, including Ms. Iris Chang's scathing book, which she 'researched' entirely with the Chinese without any reference to any Japanese source whatsoever.

Anyway, the Japanese are much more educated about both the sides. Chinese aren't. In five years of living in Tokyo, I didn't meet a single Japanese who wasn't aware of Nanjing, who didn't accept the monkey business in WWII, who wasn't personally regretful, and who didn't wan to move on.

Can't say the same about the Chinese today, even the educated ones in China. Most of them have no clue what China is doing in Vietnam, Bhutan, Ladakh, Spratley Islands, etc, because China won't let them.

That's how you brainwash public with propaganda. Japan is not doing anything like that compared to the grand scale at which China does it, has been doing it, will keep doing it.

utopia

The global count says 100k to 200k. China says 300k. Well, that's already a proof of exaggeration.

But to me that's not the point. 300 people tortured is already too many.

The discussion above is about "death toll", not atrocities. Nanking was the capital at that time. Of course it had more people. People get killed in war. The toll was significantly higher in other parts of the world.

I thought your focus here is about the atrocities, not about the death toll overall. The latter will of course be high in a densely populated country.

Japan recognizes its atrocities and monkey business. Has apologized for it. From the very helm. Many of those apologies sound very well-meaning to me. If they don't to you, tell me why.

The ball is in China's court to show some maturity and intent for constructive stability in the region, not posturing for humanity on one side, while doing whatever the heck it pleases on another. In international politics, the context is very relevant.