The charter is not drafted by some foreign powers. Instead, it was written by Chinese scholars, activists, human rights advocates, well-known people in China, an ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 10:39
I have to leave this topic to you to think about it because it requires much background knowledge of politic, social, culture and history and other information to explain. I don’t think I can do a good job on explaining it. I am not saying I am smarter than you or anything else. It is just because I had read the relating materials.
I do not say what CCP had done is right, but I understand the reasons (not necessary I would support it) behind it.
You need to understand a type of general election reflects a much grater spectrum of economic, political and social aspects behind it. It reflects the economic strength, social structure, education level of its population, political structure, legal system, and much more of a country.
A goal is important but how to achieve the goal is even more critical.
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-6 03:25
Please read my previous post again:
Change certainly needs time, and I am not saying China needs to become a democracy overnight. But the smallest steps, as illustrated in Charter 2008 (零八憲章), can at least be put to start. But instead of heeding to this most sincere pledge, CCP decides to crack down on the authors of the Charter. The Mothers of Tiananmen and other victims have already waited for 20 years. How much longer do these victims have to wait?!
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 02:11
The charter is not drafted by some foreign powers. Instead, it was written by Chinese scholars, activists, human rights advocates, well-known people in China, and supported and signed by tens of thousands of Mainland Chinese before it is "harmonized" by the CCP.
Funny how a 50 cents poster such as yourself is trying to use Taiwan as an example, because in my mind, Taiwan is a model example of how democracy and freedom has flourished. From the old authoritari ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-5 21:47
You need to understand a type of general election reflects a much grater spectrum of economic, political and social aspects behind it. It reflects the economic strength, social structure, education level of its population, political structure, legal system, and much more of a country.
A goal is important but how to achieve the goal is even more critical.
Judging by the writing style and tone of the previous post, I highly suspect the above post is written by a different (and possibly higher ranked and more intelligent) 50 cents party member. But what do I know as an average Joe~
We can leave debate of whether economic stability must precede democracy for another day, but as the 3rd or 4th biggest economy in the World, China's economic prowess has certainly reach the stage where it can support social and political reforms. And the country is in dire need of political reforms because faults are bursting everywhere in the current system! Corruption is widespread and rampant. There are laws set out to govern the land but nobody (including the various levels of governments themselves) follows them. Fundamental humans rights are non-existent precisely when you need them to be there to protect you. The only thing China has is its vast economic prowess.
Simply put, today's China cannot follow the same slow pace that ROC was taking in Taiwan. The world is a different place -- a much faster place. People are better educated, much more sophisticated, and information travels at a pace that no one can even dream of back in the 40's. And PRC's problems are far more severe and in much direr need of addressing than ROC' problems 60 years ago.
Change certainly needs time, and I am not saying China needs to become a democracy overnight. But the smallest steps, as illustrated in Charter 2008 (零八憲章), can at least be put to start. But instead of heeding to this most sincere pledge, CCP decides to crack down on the authors of the Charter. The Mothers of Tiananmen and other victims have already waited for 20 years. How much longer do these victims have to wait?!
No amount of logical reasoning can be said to defend the CCP.
Funny how a 50 cents poster such as yourself is trying to use Taiwan as an example, because in my mind, Taiwan is a model example of how democracy and freedom has flourished. From the old authoritari ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-5 21:47
Lik, by using Taiwan as an example, you basically agree to China's plan of economic reforms before democratic reforms. If you truly support Taiwan's path to democracy, then you should be smart enough to realize that mainland China is now going along the same path. Taiwan had experienced rapid economic growth long before they had any presidential election. It wasn't like the KMT allowed democratic election in Taiwan at he very beginning. But eventually they allowed democratic election. The same thing will happen in China. Economic growth provides a sound basis for democratic reforms.
Notice the number of decades between Taiwan's 228 incident and Lee Deng Hui's apology.
In fact, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong had experience rapid economic growth long before they had any form of democratic election.
The per capita GDP of Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong are way higher than that of slumdog millionaire India. Even mainland China has way higher per capita GDP than slumdog millionaire India.
Just a hint for you -- look at the general election in Taiwan. Did you get the hint?
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-5 17:44
Funny how a 50 cents poster such as yourself is trying to use Taiwan as an example, because in my mind, Taiwan is a model example of how democracy and freedom has flourished. From the old authoritarian days of the Elder Chiang, Taiwan underwent reforms and turned itself into the flourishing democracy that it is now. Certainly their system is far from perfect at the moment, but it is vastly superior to what PRC can hope to become in the foreseeable future.
A full explanation of why Taiwanese democracy has taken huge strides forward would be much too difficult for you to understand. Suffice to say that under the Taiwanese democratic system, voters have thrown the ultra corrupt Ah Bien out of Office peacefully using the power of their ballots. Taiwanese people have a CHOICE of who they want to put into Office to serve them! Do Mainland Chinese citizens get to enjoy this right?!
More importantly, if you have any sort of understanding in Taiwanese history, you'll know what the 228 Incident is. In comparison to 6.4, it puts the CCP to even more shame! Long story short, the 228 incident developed from widespread riots, demonstrations, protests, etc. in Taipei, and in the end, the KMT army stepped in to suppress the protests. Thousands of citizens died in the suppression process, and the KMT have since been repeatedly slammed for the citizens' deaths.
Notice any similarities to 6.4 here? But guess what? 李登輝, the ROC President at the time, came out and issued an official apology to all victims of the 228 incident. Compensations were made out to surviving families of the victims, and Feb 28 is made into a national holiday to commemorate the victims.
That is what happened in Taiwan. The KMT has to admit their crimes and apologize because the democratic systems essentially would ensure their doom if they didn't. That is the power and value of democracy. Do you see the same thing happening in Mainland China with the CCP's one party rule?!
I actually talked to some journalists in HK just to confirm,
unfortunately, it is true.
Mr. Bok Bok Cheung from 1470 had talked on the issue for a few day,
hope some LYK will remember
Please correct me if I'm wrong
發表於 2009-6-4 11:18
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