samsung

暈~~~ 30 頁﹖
呢個題目有甚麼好討論呀﹖

chunsh

原帖由 samsung 於 2009-1-7 23:05 發表
暈~~~ 30 頁﹖
呢個題目有甚麼好討論呀﹖

政治﹐宗教﹐道德永遠都是討論的熱門題目

Ultraman

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2009-1-7 21:49 發表


Ultraman, seems that you are the one who lost your mind...
I don't think that ALL Christians should have same POV in ALL areas, can you get it? We are human being ar...
For me, my religion have two  ...

Dear friend, I did mentioned, human is not perfect, and nobody is perfect, no matter believers or non-believers. What I keep saying is, the bible is like a staff handbook written by a company, it's for ALL staffs to follow, no excuse and no exceptional case, how can it be some staffs can do this and that but some staffs can't do this and that? No matter the staffs like or don't like, happy or unhappy, they have to follow straightly unless they don't want to work for that company, is that right and sense making to you? And of course, whether the staffs are capable to follow all the instruction is a different story.
Now back to our discussion, shouldn't all Christians (or including Catholics and believers) willing to follow the bible teaching? I'm talking about the attitude, not the capability. And of course, no man is perfect, and thus there must be something this and that they can't do in full. That's call "weakness". But if to say, those believers don't want to follow the bible in the first place, that's the problem and they shouldn't even believe in the religion.

Ultraman

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2009-1-7 21:54 發表


I don't know, please ask God.
I am not a representative of God, and I THINK that he may not want to have both.

You said, you don't see any problem donating money from winning a lottery to a church. Now you said you think God may not accept that?!

Ultraman

原帖由 mcjohnjohn 於 2009-1-7 21:58 發表


I just want to tell you that as a Christian, I would definitely help her. Is it clear?
Why do you think Christian would not help that prostitute? Isn't it 鑽牛角尖?

Not me 鑽牛角尖. Someone quoted from the bible, Christians shouldn't do anything that may let brothers fall. So playing MJ in church even not for gambling is not good, cuz it might give negative impression to both Christians and non-believers. Then I stated out my prostitute example. Would that case be possible to let other brothers to fall? I myself don't think so and so I will give her a hand (even I were a Christian). But I want to hear what other Christians think. Cuz I wonder what things count as "potentially will let other brothers to fall".

shutterbug

Found this article to be interesting...different topic though...I think the little brother and little sister's example is quite good

“屬理”與“屬靈”

作者： 傳聲筒

最初發表： ACT


一本小小的聖經，不同的人能讀出截然不同的滋味來。有人看到的是愛
和拯救，有人看到的卻是恨和咒詛。為什麼會如此？方博士舟子給了一
個不無道理的解釋：

但聖經讀得比舟子多的未必沒有，一樂、以琳對聖經就都讀得很多嘛
，只不過他們對聖經的理解是“屬靈”的，而舟子對聖經的理解是“
屬理”的，說不到一快去而已。
方舟子

原來是讀或者說理解的方法不同。為什麼會有這些不同？難道是“屬靈
”理解的人都沒有那“屬理”的腦袋嗎？恐怕不見得。能有方博士那樣
才和智都高過十二斗的人固是不多，但怕也不是一個沒有。象下面回帖
的一樂就似不弱。一樂的帖子我總得做完腦保健操之後再來讀，否則的
話，理解起來就有困難。但他們兩個對於聖經的理解卻剛好處於兩個極
端。為什麼？請看一樂的解釋：

其實我并沒有論述過自己對“釋經”的看法。舟子兄既然提到了，就
稍微談談。聖經是上帝的啟示，自然是“屬靈”的。這里我用到“屬
靈”一詞，主要是指啟示的超越性－－它直接從上帝而來，并不是作
人的靈魂與身體的對分。當我們讀一本書時，必然用到理性，否則不
可能理解書的內容，也就失去了讀書的意義。讀聖經也一樣，理性是
必不可少的。所以要努力理解經文的字面意義，了解成書時的歷史、
地理、風俗等背景，以便明白作者所要表達的意思。但是不是唯理呢
？其實不止聖經，讀任何一部書，都必然卷入我們的世界觀、價值觀
、人生觀、…這種現象并不局限於讀書，日常生活中也是如此﹔我們
每一個人都帶著自己的一副眼鏡在看人、看這個世界。有的人堅信自
己的眼鏡無色透明，有的人知道自己的眼鏡有問題。忽略了世界觀、
價值觀而純粹地談理性，必然導向拆毀一切的虛無。因此真正的終極
權威才能賦予理性存在的最大意義。許多時候，對聖經的不同理解不
是出在理性上，而是因為領受了不同權威的世界觀、價值觀各自做出
“理性”的“解釋”。如果聖經出自上帝的啟示，對聖經的真正了解
，尤其是牽涉到最基本的世界觀、價值觀的部分，自然必需以對上帝
權威的回歸與認同為前提。否則就是拿中文當日文讀。而這個回歸與
認同是一個不斷的過程，有上帝的工作，人也要有意志上的決定，也
要努力。在討論聖經時，肯定理性的作用與看清理性的局限性，同樣
重要。

這是再清楚不過的了。除了“理”以外，還有許多“觀”在起作用。先
入為主的許多東西在“理”的前面導引。雖然對於許多基督徒來講這麼
說有點冤枉，因為他們原來的許多“觀”與方博士接近（我不敢說一樣
，因為方博士不喜歡）。從這個角度上講，基督徒們可能還更“屬理”
一些。當然，這種說法是與“教義”相“悖”的，因為聖經上說“這些
事向聰明通達人就藏起來，向嬰孩就顯出來”（太11:25，路10:21）。
想想吧。

編一個故事：媽媽給不滿三歲的一兒一女端來一碗湯元。小兒特“屬理
”，且有“世界觀”，一看之下就嚷嚷：“白白，圓圓，是乒乓球球，
爸爸說，乒乓球球不可以吃，咽不下，噎，危險！”。媽媽告訴他們是
湯圓，不是乒乓球，可以吃。小兒“屬理”，拒不吃。小女雖然也知乒
乓球白白圓圓，吃了危險，可是卻接受媽媽的勸告，吃了。

其實，確如方博士所看到的和一樂所指出的，除了“屬理”和“屬觀”
之外，“屬靈”的引導在讀聖經時應該占有很大的地位。再引一下一樂
的話：“如果聖經出自上帝的啟示，對聖經的真正了解，。。。自然必
需以對上帝權威的回歸與認同為前提。”就是說聖經是一個特別的東西
，需要特別的對待。也就是說需要“聖靈的引導”。

可是有位問了：

再提問：讀聖經是否要有上帝的做工才讀得懂？如果我讀不懂，老覺
得聖經錯誤百出，耶穌老罵人，是不是說沒有上帝在我心里的工作？
怎樣才能把他老人家請過來，化腐朽為神奇？
一丁

我猜（猜錯的話請原諒）這位的意思是說：要麼你們說的聖靈不存在，
要麼“他老人家”不公平。其實，上帝并沒有不公平。“他愿意萬人得
救，明白真道”（提前 2:4）﹔“不愿有一人沉淪”（彼後 3:9）。你
只要有一顆謙卑愿意受教的心，不是總想著自己的理性能跟“他老人家
”一較高低，那麼，“我又告訴你們，你們祈求就給你們。尋找就尋見
。叩門就給你們開門”（路11:9）。

接著編上面的故事：

媽媽告訴小兒，“這是今天的夜宵，你不吃待會兒要餓的。”小兒大叫
，“你真壞，要我吃乒乓球球。還詛咒我，要我餓！”

Nam

原帖由 samsung 於 2009-1-7 23:05 發表
暈~~~ 30 頁﹖
呢個題目有甚麼好討論呀﹖

............I was shock when I just realized it is 30+ pages and dun even bother to click back the previous pages to follow the debate..

Ultraman

I tried some time to finish this long passage. Yet I might be stupid or “屬理”?! I don't quite get what the meaning it wants to say. Or should I look for and go study the background and history and custom and geographic background  of the writer first?

BiscottiGelato

原帖由 shutterbug 於 2009-1-7 20:37 發表

Just because you feel offended is not sufficient to demand an apology my friend.  You must have good grounds.  What kind of ridiculous claims did I make about your parents?  I did not make fun of you ...

Why can't I demand an apology if I feel offended? It's up to your own perception and moral standard, perhaps things like arrogance might influence your judgement as to whether you want to give that apology tho. On the flip side, I can also say a lot of weird, but false claims as example about your mom/dad/gf/sister, etc. Do you really want me to do that tho?

I definately will apologize if you feel offended, even tho I have made no personal claim, hypothetical or not, about you personally. But if you do genuinely feel offended, I here apologize and want to clarify that they weren't attacks and nothign against you personally in any nature.

It seems tho, you as a representative of the Christian community is not as generous and objective in the way you conduct yourself however. Unfortunate, but it's exactly what this thread is about, and a perfect example also: 'How Christians conduct themselves to the rest of the non-Christian world'.

mcjohnjohn

原帖由 Ultraman 於 2009-1-8 14:27 發表

You said, you don't see any problem donating money from winning a lottery to a church. Now you said you think God may not accept that?!

YES!

I didn't see any problem donating money from winning a lottery to a church, and it is my POV.
I told you that God may not accept that, because I don't know whether he would accept it or not.

If I win a lottery, I will donate a portion to church. Even with church accepts it, I still don't know whether God would like it. Only God knows.