BiscottiGelato

超左速就係超左速，冇理由唔知自己觸犯法例卦﹖錯就認左佢。未錯果D朋友就真係唔好咁做，唔係鑄成大錯成黎後悔就太遲。spoonek4 發表於 2010-9-19 01:14

Sure, if they setup a radar trap and catches you doing 51 at a 50 zone, your statement can also apply, in fact that's what they are going to tell you if you argue otherwise. Is it fair? Is it reasonable? Is it a cash grab? Is it changing the legislation just for show? The statement doesn't answer any of these questions, doesn't make the legislation any more reasonable than otherwise, and doesn't make the current debate any less meaningless.

Besides, 犯法 is one thing, 錯 is another. One is a legal question, one is a moral question. Certain activities can be illegal but morally acceptable, certain activities can be legal but morally unacceptable. One needs to be able to distinguish between the two to put up any reasonable arguments.

chobit

First, here is something to educate ourself on Blood Alcohol Content
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_content

Personally, I have never DUI.  The max amount of alcohol I drive per dinner is never more than 1 glass of beer or wine, and that's usually for a long sitting dinner which last well over 2 hours, and 99% of the time, my wife would be the driver.  That was one time I was at a party in downtown, and I had 2 drinks at the party with all my co-workers, since it's more than 1 drink, I decided to stayed in my cars for another 2hrs.

BiscottiGelato

其實真係唔明點解出去食飯唔可以有其中一個friend唔飲酒，做driver？

就算喺夜深，可能覺得條路無車又直又 ...
fibbi 發表於 2010-9-18 23:29

Cuz not everybody car pools... DD is not always possible.

If everything is based on the worst case scenario (that some emergency will happen and you need the shortest stopping distance possible), then we can make every road/hwy/etc to have the lowest speed limit possible at all times. Afterall, who knows what can pop out 10 meters in front of your car at any time, right?

The reality is that there's much less traffic and pedestrain on a road like Knight St/Boundary near Marine Way/etc during the night than during the day time. The speed limit is simply opposite of what a driver will perceive in terms of a reasonable speed. With good traffic/road engineering, if they want to limit the speed there they should make the road windier/rougher/etc. Instead they put up a barriers in the median (for Boundary), make the road nice, wide, smooth and straight with steep downhill, and put up a 50km/hr sign. With a speed limit that's unrealistically low even for the day time, and a heavy slap when just 40km/hr above the limit at such roads, IMO it's total foul.

40k+ downhill at say Boundary near Marine Way when not a car's in sight, it's just a totally different to 40k above in a school zone. Yet, the penalty is the same. If that's not poor legislation, then at least it's a very poor speed limit?

I am all for toughening up on some of these penalties to deter reckless behaviors. Toughening up drinking and driving penalty is fine, but only if there's education to back it. Toughening up excessive speeding penalty is fine, but only if they fix some of the unrealistic speed limits out there.

布小熊

I am confused with the discussion....
The 0.08 is always the "illegal" boundary, right? So pushing it to 0.05 is so bad now?
Or you are supportive to the Zero tolerance? That I have no problem with but it puts drunken chicken out of the menu then.
Personally, illegal is illegal and tougher penalty or not, I still don't want to be illegal.

fibbi

Cuz not everybody car pools... DD is not always possible.

If everything is based on the worst cas ...
BiscottiGelato 發表於 2010-9-20 16:24

For the example of Marine Way near Boundary. Whether the speed limit is 50 (so driving 90 is considered excessive), or the legal speed is 70 so 90km doesn't make it excessive, either way to me, driving 90km there is too fast. Think about rainy winter, it's a curvy (not totally straight) road. What if braking cause a slip? Driving 90 is harder to handle emergency situation than 60 for sure.  Emergency situation may not be only a person jumping out of the road, could be black ice, could be just some oil patch. Just never know. Also, there are older cars out there with poorer handling, it's better to be slower than faster IMO.

The other point is that the harm caused by speeding 40km/h in a school zone vs speeding over 40km/h on an empty road is greater yet penalty is the same. In your opinion it's not fair. That I would agree. So I guess in addition to excessive speeding, the person may have additional charge of dangerous driving and others. So the penalty won't be just excessive speeding alone.

I do agree the speeding limit currently needs to be updated. 99% people won't drive 50km so it's rather a concensus to drive 60km without problem. 65? I guess it's ok. 70? barely...80? I don't know, some road design may not work with higher speed. (e.g. merge lane, red light etc.)

Just my 0.0000002 cent.  

spoonek4

我其實覺得佢對drinking & driving 整唔整zero tolerance 都唔太大分別﹖0.1/0.08/0.05都好
，你飲左之後就算隔左幾耐你俾人叫吹波仔都有咁既機會賴野﹖我之前收左工都會同同事o係公司吹水飲啤酒，但宜家真係唔會了，罰則高左的確係其中一個理由，對我係有阻嚇作用，但係我都唔想累人，特別係個細路女俾人車死同睇左HK幾單醉駕撞死人既case之後。

對於speeding，我相信好多人都知我鐘意渣快車。但係我對佢響你講果D 地方設既speed limit，我覺得唔過份。boundary落marine 50kph你想幾快呀﹖講真果段落斜的確係幾攞命，行50kph唔過份，同埋斜路底間唔中都捉車架啦，自己控制速度好應該。宜家好多人50k都行60+，咁如果佢set speed limit去
70kph，D人咪行成80-90﹖marine 行50/knight bridge行80 之類亦都唔過份，早多三五年或者仲可以話離譜既﹖不過呢一兩年我成日渣車4圍走，覺得無論日頭夜晚都多左好多車，就唔覺得真係咁差，反正都快唔得去邊架啦！﹖

出街或者返工預鬆D時間，就唔使渣咁快啦！萬一真係真係有D咩天塌落黎人命關天既急事，渣快左，俾人捉都冇辦法，鬼叫真係emergency﹖

BiscottiGelato

I am confused with the discussion....
The 0.08 is always the "illegal" boundary, right? So pushing  ...
布小熊 發表於 2010-9-20 16:33

I think the warning level have always been at 0.05. So there's no diff other than the penalty.

In terms of the discussion, I have always been aiming at that the policy change is merely a political play. The increase in penalty would not raise the level of safety, and is largely unfair because of unrealistic speed limit for certain road/road designs and arbitrary penalty at arbitrary speed/BAC levels.

Moreover the change in legislation places heavy dependance on the inaccurate breathlyzers and allows police to be both judge and jury when it comes to excessive speeding and DUI cases. In fact you can be charged these heavy penalty based on a balantly wrong breathlyzer result. (eg. a cop ask someone who didn't drink a drop to do the breathlyzer, if the breathalyzer results shows 0.05+, immediate impound + driver license revokation. Before you can get to a court you would've suffered through driver license revokation and vehicle impoundment).

What I am pushing is education, road design changes, and realistic speed limits that people will follow, for improvement in road safety. My argument is that the gov't only want to up penalty is because it's the easilet political move they can do. I am also disagreeing with the legislation change because police already have enough power for them to abuse already. We don't need to give them even more tools that allows them to go above the courts.

What I am not pushing is to drive after drinking any amount that will cause perceptable decrease in driving performance, whether this means it's 0.05 or not (I know people that's gone after 2 drinks, they shouldn't even drive after a single one, or after a alcohol heavy dish). Nor am I advocating driving at dangerous speeds (dangerous as per road conditions, does not always match the speed limit however).

All I am saying the law and penalty is poor for what people are actually encountering day to day, and upping the penalty makes it even more unfair. Unless everyone thinks the law is always fair and penalty is always fair, regardless of how the legislators spin it. Otherwise I think there's plenty of room for discussion.

BiscottiGelato

First, here is something to educate ourself on Blood Alcohol Content


Personally, I have never DUI. ...
chobit 發表於 2010-9-20 16:13

You can be charged DUI if you are over the limit and sitting in your car with ignition off, but with the key in a reachable location, regardless if there's intention to drive. This is the current law, very fair, isn't it?

BiscottiGelato

For the example of Marine Way near Boundary. Whether the speed limit is 50 (so driving 90 is consi ...
fibbi 發表於 2010-9-20 17:23

Posted speed limit is supposed to the the maximum. Aka. the max speed you are allowed to drive at in perfect condition. You are supposed to adjust your speed and lower it according to the road/weather condition. So the rainy weather, black ice have nth to do with the max limit.

For perfect conditions tho, posted speed limits are definately unrealistically slow, that people just tend to ignore it. I'd think the roads would be much safer, with less speed differential (main cause of speed related accidents), if the speed limits are actually realistics such that people will follow them.

BiscottiGelato

我其實覺得佢對drinking & driving 整唔整zero tolerance 都唔太大分別﹖0.1/0.08/0.05都好
，你飲左之後就 ...
spoonek4 發表於 2010-9-20 18:12

If posted speed limit is realistic, people might actually abide them. I don't agree that people will always drive +10/+20 on top of the speed limit. Heck, residential areas with unposted speed limit have a 50km/hr default. I don't see people being stupid and drive even close to 50km/hr.

Most people are reasonable drivers, I can't say the same for posted speed limits (that most posted speed limits are reasonable). Good for you if you find most speed limits reasonable and actually abides to them, but most people don't because they are set unrealistically.