peter236

And one more thing. Contrary to what you have repeated shown in various threads and posts, I would never underestimate India and its people. Their country is rich with history, and their citizens are  ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-6 21:27

China's per capita GDP(nominal) is at least three times larger than that of India.
why would a democratic country lag so far behind?

Nam

I have to say it sincerely after reading your post (nothing personal) – “you should find out more about 6.4 from different sources. Not just things happened in Beijing and at Tiananmen Square, but ...
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-7 00:52

這也是我無奈的！
我明白當年為何要stop，並不代表用我感情上要接受！
沒有當初的震壓，就沒有現在的百年驚奧！無奈地這是每個大國必經的路！

我衷心感激／尊重鄧老對經濟發展的催促和執著，沒有那些元老，祖國怎能從赤字那麼高，演變成現今大國！但現在人民富起來了，國家富起來了，是否該站出來給人民一個交代，是否讓人民富起來?

Nam

正如趙老所說，再拖多久，人們還是會記得！
當然我不會天真到去相信他們會給我們事實的全部！

歷史永遠都是勝利的一方寫的，這個道理古今中外從沒改變！
我個人求的，只是最起碼的反思和面對！
如果連自家事也不追求，不面對，我們憑甚麼去談甚麼要求日本政府去承認南京屠殺?

Nam

當然這也是小妹的一些愚見，不喜勿插！
我只希望各位能夠理性地討論，share 大家的research 成果，好讓對歷史不太清楚的人，有個大概！

而不是為坳而坳，為感性而作出貿論／人身攻擊！
如果為坳而坳，為了prove 自己比別人優越，我想維園比例適合！又或者有興趣者，大可係stanley park 搞翻個城市論壇！

Lik

其實好簡單，你所有嘅論點，聚即至最後嘅呢一句：

Elder Deng had said – “穩定壓倒一切”. Do you understand why he said so and what he mean and under what situation he said that?rockypath 發表於 2009-6-6 23:52

就反映晒你同我嘅分別：你堂而皇之咁話 "國家穩定" 比其他一切 -- 包括人命同無辜嘅犧牲 -- 都來得重要，而小弟則覺得人命凌駕於所謂嘅 "國家穩定"。你可以話我唔識大體，但我會話我寧願唔識大體都好過你冷血無人性！

再者，從中共建黨六十年重複不段嘅事實我地可以見到，老鄧同其他領導人口中所講嘅 "國家穩定壓倒一切" 其實只係為咗保住佢地自己能夠繼續掌權嘅堂皇藉口。唔好唔記得，自毛賊開始，共產黨領導層裡面任何人一旦失勢嘅話，下場一般都係極為悲慘。老鄧深受呢個信念嘅荼毒，所以當然係會不擇手段咁去保住自己嘅權來保住自己。

再講，中國會分裂？漢人不瀏都信奉大一統主意，而內蒙古嘅人口亦早已被漢化，變成漢人遠遠多過蒙古人。新疆果邊無錯係有啲東突厥組織成日搞搞震，但新疆嘅漢族人口比例亦非常高（好似接近一半？），要分裂成功絕對唔係一件容易嘅事。極其量會走人嘅多數只係小西藏，而並非大西藏區。從一個經濟角度來睇，西藏每年都用中央好多錢，係一個經濟負擔而並非收入來源。小弟唔贊成藏獨，只係支持西藏藏人自決。如果人地藏人自己係想離開中共嘅話，你咪由得佢走囉？相反嘅，如果藏人想留，咁自然係無任歡迎。

講來講去，以國家穩定來做血腥鎮壓同屠殺學生嘅借口都係講唔通。最少，咁樣嘅藉口唔會被有血性嘅人認同。

-力

rockypath

其實好簡單，你所有嘅論點，聚即至最後嘅呢一句：

就反映晒你同我嘅分別：你堂而皇之咁話 "國家穩定" 比其他一切 -- 包括人命同無辜嘅犧牲 -- 都來得重要，而小弟則覺得人命凌駕於所謂嘅 "國家穩定"。你可以話我唔 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-7 09:45

You have been criticizing other people are cold hearted, narrow minded and stubborn. These all applied to you. I have to tell you – “don’t try to defend yourself just for the mean of defending yourself; It just makes yourself look foolish.”

Do you really believe”穩定壓倒一切” just for the sake of economy?????? If that is you truly believe in, I feel pity for you. You do not worth my time to discuss this topic with you.

”穩定壓倒一切” is to stop China from breaking down to different states and prevent the possibility of civil war and the invasion of other countries (more lives to be lost and more blood to be shedded). It guarantees the continue development of economic and political reform. It gives mainland Chinese a stable, peaceful and prosperous life and a hope of a brighter future both economically and politically.

If China breaks down, there will be a big set back both economically and politically. Will be there any Democracy? You tell me.

So you think Elder Deng only know how to drive the economic reform? He is, in fact,  the driving force for the political reform as well. Without him, we won’t see the reform and improvement in China political system and structure at all, and as well as the improvement in human right.

“中國會分裂？” – I can only tell you to read some about the Chinese history. Can you tell me how many times in Chinese history China had broken down to smaller states and was invaded by other countries?

Did anyone expect USSR collapsed so rapidly (I felt it just happened overnight) when it was one of the only two supper powers in the world?

Is who truly for a better tomorrow for China and Chinese people? Is it you or Elder Deng? You tell me.

I really feel pity for you. You know too little and keep arguing just for the sake of arguing. It just makes me loose the respect to you.   

無知並不是罪﹐  真正的罪是以無知為榮。

chunsh

其實好簡單，你所有嘅論點，聚即至最後嘅呢一句：

就反映晒你同我嘅分別：你堂而皇之咁話 "國家穩定" 比其他一切 -- 包括人命同無辜嘅犧牲 -- 都來得重要，而小弟則覺得人命凌駕於所謂嘅 "國家穩定"。你可以話我唔 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-7 09:45

before applying democracy to a group of people, that group of people MUST (yes, must) have received the western education for years. At least the adults in that group of people already have the western democracy values in their mind. Otherwise, democracy will NOT work! since they dont know how democracy work and what would be the consequence that they, the citizen, misused their democratic power. 做事要有先後

somewhereintime

I watched the Movie Dr. Sun Yat Sen(Made in China with the assistance from PLA) many times, Sun Yat Sen advocated an open, democratic and wealthy New China. We have had
our Chinese general election in early 20's.
Unfortunately both the KMT and CCP denied our constitutional right until 80's in Taiwan.
Democratic is a long journey, but the governing political party has no right to impose their ideology upon us. No political system is perfect, the CCP gov't did make a economic miracle
by defying all the communism economic theories. What did we learn from the story?
Communism does not work, at least for our time. To me, the Beijing Government is a bundle of extreme Capitalists operates under the name of Chinese Communist Party.
Canadian, on the contrarary  is a genuine Socialist country.

Lik

If you think I am merely writing to defend myself for the sake of defending myself, you're free to think that. But I'd tell you that is not my goal.

You also need to reread my previous post b/c I said the CCP leaders are using "stability" as their excuse to ensure their own and the CCP's continual stay in power. In nowhere did I say they were doing this for the economy. Nice attempt in trying to frame me for something I didn't say though. Haha~

As I wrote in the previous post, it is highly unlikely that China will collapse in the same way as USSR did. The ethnic make up of USSR is vastly different since people in those regions have a strong sense of territoriality and individual ethnicity. Except for Tibet, China no longer has that because most other regions have been too heavily Han-ized. Did you even read my post, man?!

It is true that Elder Deng was the prime initiator of both economic and political reforms. I think it was him who introduced the 2-term/10 years thing for party leaders, and for that he must be applauded. But at the same time, the pace of his political reforms were too slow. And as I was saying in the previous post, even though he introduced the 2-term rule into the party, he was too corrupted by the absolute power he enjoyed while he was in the leader seat to relinquish that very same power. (Again, did you even bother reading or understanding my previous post?)

Except for the most fundamental right to live, human rights have not improved much at all in China. In fact, on many fronts there have actually been huge setbacks. Freedom of speech and open press is non-existent. Freedom to assemble is non-existent. Religious freedom is heavily controlled (by an atheist party, I might add). Property protection is non-existent precisely when you need it most. If Chinese are satisfied to enjoy only the same living rights as herds of farm animals, then by all means, human rights in China is totally acceptable.

-Lik

rainbow-davie

算把啦, 中國幾千年封建思想已經深入某D人血液裡.
中國歷史上, 小人奸臣多不勝數, 今於助紂為虐的如繁星不可數, 名君名臣有幾許? 有多少正直有膽有識之士?

我不期望能名留青史, 但也不甘為愚昧之輩在權力前埋沒良心, 指鹿為馬, 做其犬奴.